Tuner's Springfield Rant & Colt

[XMP]

While I realize that I have neither the experience or potential to be a 1911Tuner , I do aspire to being a 1911Tweaker. But some of the recent comments regarding Springfield's Milspec have given me pause to ponder. I have one Milspec, which I have made a few minor changes to (trigger, MSH & springs, FP). I had been considering buying another to go even further with, but now I'm wondering if that is the best route.

I'm weighing a Milspec ($499 in my neighborhood) against a Colt Series 70 ($880) as a starting point. By the time I'm done I want to end up with an all real steel basic 1911. So, Tuner and others what are the pros and cons of the two routes, bearing in mind the difference in original small part quality as well as initial cost? (Obviously I'm not interested in Series 80 as a starting point or the dilemma of initial cost would be simplified).

One other possibility, I know a shop that has a Kimber Classic (non Series II) for $670, which I suppose could also be a starting point.

I'm not confident enough in my judgment to select a used USGI as a starting point, although I can tell there is much to recommend that route.

 

[Drjones]

I'm not Tuner, nor do I play him on TV, but here's my $0.02 if you don't mind:

I would get the Colt.

Why? They are the original manufacturer of the 1911 and still put out one of the finest 1911 style pistols, with the least amount of MIM parts.

Further, Springers, while being fine guns, are made in Brazil. I think their frames and/or slides may be made in America, but I'm not sure.

It just seems odd to me to own such a thoroughly American pistol such as the 1911, yet to own one that is not made in this country.

I also believe the Colt will hold its value significantly better than most other makes.

My non-tuner opinion, FWIW.

 

[sundance43.5]

Contrary to what some of the ignorati on this board post in regards to what they've heard from their neighbor's brother's uncle's dog groomer, the new Colts are some of the best 1911s out there, especially with everybody jumping on the wagon and turning out some real crap, i.e. Sig's GSR and some of the Springfields.

The Colt 1911 Series 70 is about as close to perfection as a 1911 can be, unless you want to drop $1000 or more on stupid crap.

 

[Drjones]

Good post above.

I think the fact that a Colt 1911 on the shelf of your average gunshop is about as common as common sense in john kerry's head speaks for itself.

Colt is having a heck of a time keeping up with demand for their 1911's.

There's a reason for that.

 

[1911Tuner]

Colt/Springer

Ahem...My nickel's worth.

If I had the 850-900 clams to spend...plus the cost of parts upgrades....definitely the Colt, even though they could take a lesson
from Springfield and Kimber on slide to frame fit. Fewer MIM parts
in the Colt...and then there's that horsie.

If cost was an issue, it would be Springfield...GI or standard Mil-Spec,
as long as I could get the right grip frame contour on the gun. (See? They do hear and respond to the market demand.) You could upgrade the
critical small parts and have enough left over for a case of ball ammo and
a decent horsehide rig.

Kimber cuts it right in the middle, but they've had a lot of bad reports lately on small parts breakage...even some that are suited for the MIM process,
and then there's that Schwartz thing that put me completely out of Kimber's reach. Just don't like it. Sorry Kimber fans...Too much Murphy
opportunity there for my tastes.

To the best of my knowledge, the whole Springfield is made in Brazil,
except maybe the barrel...Still a bit of mystery around the gun. I've
heard it all kinda ways. Slide and frame in Brazil. Small parts from God-only-knows. Entire gun made in Brazil and assembled here. Entire gun
made and assembled in Brazil...and all combinations in between. Somebody who knows for certain may step in any time.

I even heard that they've got Chinese slaves traded by Norinco for a
boatload of coffee...

Luck!

Tuner

 

[ruger357]

I have a SA GI that has fewer sharp edges than the Colt I was looking at, not to mention having it almost two years with countless rounds through it with no problems at all. But I do love my SW1911.

 

[shooter.45]

I just stopped laughing the "Colt one of the best guns" thats funny. They are just hanging on by a thread. My GSR is 10 times better than the Colt I saw at my dealers shelf that has been sitting there for months collecting dust. And my S&W1911 is also top notch...

 

[horge]

Johnny,

My info is that Springfield imports virtually-entire pistols from IMBEL (Industria de Material Belico do Brasil),
albeit in nominally-knocked-down kits that are 'assembled' in the US.
Not all the parts in the IMBEL-supplied pistol are necessarily made by IMBEL itself, but may be sourced by IMBEL from elsewhere in the world.


Some non-IMBEL-sourced features and accessories are supplied and installed by Springfield Geneseo onto IMBEL bare-pistols, to produce higher-end models.

Anyway, that's merely what I heard, and even THAT may have applied only to a specific time period.


IMBEL sure does a lot of contract work:
Twin Pines (Rock Island Armory) once imported from IMBEL as well, but eventually switched to Armscor for its manufacturing contractor. Not IMBEL's fault, really... but Twin Pines' bottom line, as well as reviews of its pistols, did improve dramatically after the switch.

Gotta love the global economy.


horge

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

'Twas said:

"Colt one of the best guns" thats funny. They are just hanging on by a thread.

Yeah...I'veen hearin' that same rumor for about 25 years. I reckon that thread must be purty dang stout.
_____________________________



My GSR is 10 times better than the Colt I saw at my dealers shelf that has been sitting there for months collecting dust. And my S&W1911 is also top notch...

Excellent! Go run about 5 or 6 thousand rounds apiece through'em and report back. Clean'em about every 2,000 rounds, just to keep it interestin'.

Lemme see...OH YEAH! ------------->

 

[shooter.45]

Go run about 5 or 6 thousand rounds apiece through'em and report back. Clean'em about every 2,000 rounds, just to keep it interestin'.

I will do that and bet they will still be running great. About the cleaning cant do that dont like dirty guns... I use to have 2 colts a Colt XS series and a Gold Cup was not impress with either. Its funny how Colt has nothing new coming out have not seen anything in a while besides that overpriced WW copy I would rather take the Springer WWII. But to each his own...

 

[1911Tuner]

Dirty Guns

Shooter said:

About the cleaning cant do that dont like dirty guns...

Awww c'mon! Just for laughs...I normally clean my stock 91A1
Colts when they need a recoil spring change...or about every 2500 rounds
with my old funky cast-bullet reloads and about 50 rounds of ball tossed in to wipe the lead out of the bores every so often. Can't remember when I
last had a stoppage...It may have been 1996, but I could be wrong.
The NRM Guv'mint Model is pretty much on a par with the older guns.

The only reliability tunin' that I've done to the guns has been good extractors and Wolff springs in the magazines. Bought all three of'em
in late '91 and early '92...The NRM came home with me in aught one...

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[shooter.45]

I normally clean my stock 91A1
Colts when they need a recoil spring change...or about every 2500 rounds.



Oh man I could never do that I would be getting the jitters... After every range session for me

 

[Jammer Six]

Yeah...I'veen hearin' that same rumor for about 25 years. I reckon that thread must be purty dang stout

They say the same thing about Apple Computer.

With however many billions they have in cash, I'd like a chance to swing on that thread for a while...

Oh man I could never do that I would be getting the jitters... After every range session for me

I bet.

 

[Rob96]

Yeah the Springfield may have the tighter fit, but tight isn't always right. Read of quite a few instances where the tight Springers began to fail when they became dirty, due to the tight slides.

Dhart at the 1911 forum reports that Springfield stated to him that the Mil-Spec models are made and assebled in Brazil.

Everyone has the 1911 maker they like, thats why it is good there are so many. I'll take my Colts every time though.

 

[Dave Sample]

COLT!

 

[1911Tuner]

Right Tight

Rob said:

Yeah the Springfield may have the tighter fit, but tight isn't always right.
______________________

Tight wasn't what I was referring to. Never have been impressed by too tight in a 1911...I meant the vertical play when the slide's in battery.
The average Colt has way too much, while the Springers are just about right.

Sideto side tight can be handled in 15 minutes with a little dab 'o' slurry.
Smooooth!

 

[Rob96]

I meant the vertical play when the slide's in battery

Know what you mean. I have a SS NRM that has more vertical play than a Blued ORM that I recently picked up. Doesn't seem to affect accuracy though. I was actually wonderring if Colt did the slide to frame fit a little looser on the stainless models than the blued ones.

 

[George Hill]

I'd go with Springfield. If the gun gives you trouble, Springfield will pay to overnight it back to them so that they can bless it and overnight it back to you.

 

[1911Tuner]

Stainless/Blued

Rob said:

I was actually wonderring if Colt did the slide to frame fit a little looser on the stainless models than the blued ones.

Not likely...I bought a stainless XSE Commander from a friend
that's as good as any that I've seen...stainless or carbon...old
or new. Colt can do it the way it should be, if they just would.
_________________

Horge...Thanks for the clarification. I'm thinkin' about pickin' up
another GI Mil-Spec. I may not be able to wring it out as hard as the last one, but I'll put it through the paces to see how consistent they are 6-8
months apart.

Yeah...It's a dirty job, yadda yadda

 

[Old Fuff]

Custom duties make it advantageous for manufacturers to import guns in pieces (as parts) rather then as finished guns. This came about because congress wanted to protect the domestic industry and the jobs they represented. The Democrats may hate guns, but they love jobs. It didn't take the gun makers/importers long to find away around the restrictions, and it doesn't take skilled help to reassemble pre-fitted guns. Frankly, I'm suprised more of this doesn't go on.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Fuff Report

He said:

It didn't take the gun makers/importers long to find away around the restrictions, and it doesn't take skilled help to reassemble pre-fitted guns.

Bring back the Norincos!


Yeah...it happens all over. Poke around in your car for awhile and you'll see components made in Mexico, Japan, Brazil, China, Taiwan....It
wouldn't surprise me to see somethin' in there marked : Made in Nepal...

 

[spartacus2002]

1. I have a Springfield Loaded 1911 that has shot flawlessly for 1000s of rounds (except for some FTFs with a Wilson mag... go figure).

2. IMBEL makes VERY high quality parts. Just go over to The FAL Files and ask the FAL nuts about the IMBEL parts kits that were imported in the early 2000s. I owned an IMBEL FAL and it was great.

3. The Loaded seems to be one of the better buys on the market. Ignore the $800+ list price on SA's website. Most dealers can get you one for between $630 -- $680.

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually, I don’t think it’s illegal to import Norinco parts, (as opposed to complete guns). I sometimes wonder why some bright company doesn’t import the parts, obtain frames and maybe slides from somewhere else, and go into business with a true “real-steel†pistol. Since the finished product would be marketed under the company’s name very few buyers would know, or care about where the components came from. With some effective quality control and inspections during the manufacturing process they could offer an affordable product that would blow the socks off of their competition.

But that would require some bright, knowledgeable management – which seems to be few and far between.

 

[1911Tuner]

Norinco Parts

Old Fuff said:

Actually, I don’t think it’s illegal to import Norinco parts...
______________________

After speaking with John Marstar, I've been informed that all Norinco parts may be imported into the country except the frame....which could be obtained as a no-frills option from Caspian. The parts could be assembled with care and devotion to correct function, and sold at a price that would
be in line with Colt's NRM Government Model.

The enterprise could start with, say...250 kits, and sounds like it would be
an ideal business for a cave-dwellin' reprobate and a lanky farm boy from
the Tarheel State. We...er, uh...THEY..could take on a couple of willin'
apprentices and show'em the ropes. Within 2 years, they could hire a few
more and thus create jobs while supplying the shooters with a real 1911 again. Who knows...Caspian may even be willin' to make a run without the
scalloped trigger guard for a pre 11-A1 pistol. Norinco might be wheedled into a few one-piece long triggers and flat mainspring housings.

Now, the boys wouldn't get rich or anything...but their names would be forever recognized by the newly-founded Church of the Resurrected 1911 Pistol. Now...How cool would that be?

Fairly boggles the mind...

 

[R.H. Lee]

Now, the boys wouldn't get rich or anything...but their names would be forever recognized by the newly-founded Church of the Resurrected 1911 Pistol. Now...How cool would that be?

I like that. We'll get tax exempt status. The Right Reverend Tuner preaching. Today's sermon- "Extractors-The Finger of God, or The Claw of Satan?"

Next week's sermon' "How to Exorcise the MIM Demon"

uh-huh.

Can I have an "Amen?"