Two questions on reloading for bolt-action

[AshMan40]

Hi all,
Long time reloader for AR15s in .223 Rem and 300 BLK, but recently bought a T/C Compass in .308 Win over the holiday season because the price was just so low I couldn't help myself. I bough a new set of Lee Ultimate 4pc dies for .308. This set came with a full length die and a neck sizing die along with seating and crimping dies (plus the shell holder and powder scooper.) Add 200 once-fired 7.62 NATO cases and an 8lb keg of CFE223 powder and I'm ready to start reloading for my new rifle.

To prep the cases I de-primed and ran them thru a wet tumbler with stainless steel pins to clean the cases. Next I resized with Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Installed Winchester Large Rifle primers. Loaded/weighed the charges by hand with a trickle charger. Seated the bullets to 2.700", in the cannular, and lightly crimped them in place.

I started my first load ladder using 48.0gr ~ 49.5gr of CFE223 powder behind a Hornady 150gr FMJ bullet set at 2.700" COAL and have run into a problem closing the bolt on some of my reloaded cartridges. So I bought a Lymann aluminum .308 cartridge gauge and found some of the cases would not fully seat into the gauge. I shaved 0.002" off the top of the shell holder to push the shoulder back "a couple thou". After pulling the bullets and running ALL the case through the FL resizer once again they now either drop completely into the cartridge gauge or seats fully with slight pressure.

So I took the rounds to the range. I can now close the bolt on all rounds and none have failed to fire. But I ran into a problem with failure to extract. At first I could unlock the bolt but not pull it rearward. I had to use a plastic faced mallet to open the bolt. On my last round fired the extractor jumped off the case rim and left the case stuck in the chamber (that's why it was my last round -- rifle was now dead for that shooting session).
This problem only happens with my reloads, not with new cartridges. I had with me two boxes of off the shelf ammo (Federal white box XM80C and Monarch steel cased) and had no problems with any getting stuck in the chamber.

Today I took a micrometer to the remaining completed handloads that I have left. All the case dimensions are the same or slightly smaller than the .308 Win dimensions shown in my Hornady manual. My resized cases are apparently slightly undersized. The completed cartridges drop into the cartridge gauge and the base sits flush with the end of the gauge. So as far as I can tell my reloads are the proper dimensions and should not cause any issues.


Any ideas what may be causing the fired cases to get stuck in the chamber and not extract? When I pull the cases free the only sign of over pressure is a light ejector swipe on the base of the case. On the last step of the ladder (49.0gr) (just before the case got stuck in the chamber) I had just began to see the Winchester Large Rifle primers start to appear flat. But I have seen worse so I don't think we had exceeded max pressure.
I'd imagine that if there was a problem with the chamber it would impact the boxed rounds the same as my reloads? There was zero issue with boxed rounds.
I'd imagine if there was a problem with my handloads it would not fit completely into the cartridge gauge. And if there was a problem with the size of the case I'd expect that once I fire the round it would now be perfectly sized to my rifle's chamber so extraction should be no problem. What causes a reloaded case to get stuck while allowing a boxed round to come free normally?


There was only one bit of data that I collected that might indicate a problem... I was able to capture bullet speed 10ft off the end of the 22" barrel for JUST ONE ROUND of the 48.5gr load. My chrono died for all the rest of the testing. With 48.5gr of CFE223 I got one reading of 2900fps. 2900fps is near the upper end of my load data (2974fps is at the max charge of 49.5). Maybe my batch of CFE223 is hotter than normal?
But I'm not certain I can trust this reading because it was a single reading and the chrono started to throw errors soon after.

 

[Bandit67]

Sounds like over pressure to me. Hornady tenth shows 49.6 gr. Of CFE223 as max so you are close. Also your crimp could be raising the pressure. I don't crimp any bottle neck cartridges for my bolt actions. I would try backing off to about 46 gr. with no crimp and work back up.

 

[jmr40]

Military brass has less volume than commercial brass. It takes less powder to reach a max load. Plus there is no reason to crimp. I need to back off 1-2 gr when using Federal brass compared to Hornady, Winchester, and Remington brass too

That said, Hodgdon says 51.5 gr is a max load with Winchester brass at 2975. Being 75 gr under the expected velocity even with a 22" barrel isn't terrible. You MAY have an overpressure load. But it could also be related to the case size. I'd resize the empty brass and start over at a lower powder charge and work back up again and see what happens

Even though you're brass appears to be in spec, it is possible it is a little too tight for the individual rifle you have. I have 4 bolt guns in 308. Sometimes resized brass will easily fit 3 of them, but won't close on the 4th. I have to make sure I resize my brass to fit the one rifle with the tighter chamber. I always run my resized brass through the chamber of that rifle before I prime and load them.

 

[Grumulkin]

I started my first load ladder using 48.0gr ~ 49.5gr of CFE223 powder behind a Hornady 150gr FMJ bullet set at 2.700" COAL and have run into a problem closing the bolt on some of my reloaded cartridges. I shaved 0.002" off the top of the shell holder to push the shoulder back "a couple thou". After pulling the bullets and running ALL the case through the FL resizer once again they now either drop completely into the cartridge gauge or seats fully with slight pressure.

With a body die, you could have resized the loaded cartridges without shaving anything off the shell holder and without pulling the bullets. It's possible you didn't have quite enough lube on some of the cases so they didn't go as far into the die as the others. Lee lock rings also have that O ring that's supposed to keep the die in place. The trouble with the O ring is that the die can move a little. For some operations, the die moving a little doesn't matter but for sizing and bullet seating it will matter. On my Lee sizing dies, I've replaced the Lee lock rings with Hornady lock rings.

So I took the rounds to the range. I can now close the bolt on all rounds and none have failed to fire. But I ran into a problem with failure to extract. At first I could unlock the bolt but not pull it rearward. I had to use a plastic faced mallet to open the bolt. On my last round fired the extractor jumped off the case rim and left the case stuck in the chamber (that's why it was my last round -- rifle was now dead for that shooting session).

As others have said, high pressure. You should have stopped after the first one or two failures to extract. Besides the failure to extract you also have the "light ejector swipe;" another sign of too high pressure.

Guns may differ dimensionally both in in chamber size and bore size. I had a Thompson/Center 308 Winchester Encore handgun barrel that showed high pressure signs with a definitely modest, yea even conservative, load that had worked well in other 308 Winchesters I've had with no signs of high pressure.

 

[AshMan40]

Thanks all,

I think what really confused me was no sign of flattened primers until I had approached the end of my testing at 49.0gr. Normally with my handloaded .223 I see flattened primers and THEN at the very upper end I start to see flattened primers + ejector swipe. Since I was also seeing ejector swipes on the off the shelf cartridges too I thought the swipes were a problem with the bolt face and not a sign of pressure. Again, no flat primers so not thinking over pressure.

I'm trying to use my new chrono as another measure of max pressure. If I find that I consistently reach 2975fps with a lower powder charge THAT will become my max charge, even if there are no other pressure signs. Does this sound correct?

I just seem to be having more issues with .308 reloading than I ever had with .223, 300 BLK or 9mm.

I'll back down a couple grains and start over. I come back with my results. Thanks again.

 

[Walkalong]

Normally with my handloaded .223 I see flattened primers and THEN at the very upper end I start to see flattened primers + ejector swipe. Since I was also seeing ejector swipes on the off the shelf cartridges too I thought the swipes were a problem with the bolt face and not a sign of pressure. Again, no flat primers so not thinking over pressure.

Primers lie. Ejector marks tend to tell the truth. Why load until you see "pressure signs" anyway?

I'm trying to use my new chrono as another measure of max pressure. If I find that I consistently reach 2975fps with a lower powder charge THAT will become my max charge, even if there are no other pressure signs. Does this sound correct?

No, you can't use a chrono as a de-facto pressure gauge, depending on the pressure curve it may be under or over at a certain velocity. It's a tool that can be useful is all.

As others have said, high pressure. You should have stopped after the first one or two failures to extract. Besides the failure to extract you also have the "light ejector swipe;" another sign of too high pressure.

Yep.

 

[Charlie98]

As JMR40 said, military brass is thicker than commercial brass... by quite a bit. When you work up a new load, you need to pick one or the other... any given load will produce different results, typically, between military and commercial brass. And... again... you don't need to crimp. There are several other issues you might need to check... is the bullet jamming into the rifling when you chamber it?

Typically, after resizing a case, you should be able to chamber it without problems in the rifle it's supposed to go into. If it doesn't... stop there, and revisit your sizing technique.

I also agree with the others... you are treading on thin ice... max or near max charges in military brass in an unfamiliar chamber.

 

[Toprudder]

Just an FYI, the Lyman case gauges that I have only check case length and headspace. A fired case can be inserted and the distance the case head protrudes from the case tell you the amount the case stretches - in that gun. This allows you to determine how much shoulder bump is needed. The gauge internal diameter is larger than SAAMI specs, so that fired rounds will fit. As a result, the gauge will not insure that the case will fit in any give rifle.

There are true chamber gauges, Hornady and Sheridan come to mind.

 

[Slamfire]

There was only one bit of data that I collected that might indicate a problem... I was able to capture bullet speed 10ft off the end of the 22" barrel for JUST ONE ROUND of the 48.5gr load. My chrono died for all the rest of the testing. With 48.5gr of CFE223 I got one reading of 2900fps. 2900fps is near the upper end of my load data (2974fps is at the max charge of 49.5). Maybe my batch of CFE223 is hotter than normal?
But I'm not certain I can trust this reading because it was a single reading and the chrono started to throw errors soon after.

Cut your loads! Based on your data, cut your loads to 46.0 grains and go up till you hit 2700 fps and stop! Heck, maybe start at 45 grains. Pushing a 150 2900 fps in a 308 Win is way too hot!. The velocity point you should be trying to reach is 2700 fps in a 22" barrel. Now I don't have CFE223, I tested AA2520, a ball powder which is blended per telephone conversations with Accurate Arms, to the same pressure curve as IMR 4895. I purchased jugs of the stuff when it was $64.00 for an 8 lb keg. Would'nt you? Anyway, if your loads are 2700 to 2750 fps, and I mean 2750 is the extreme end of the spread, you will not have pressure problems in a 308 Win rifle (assuming everything else is OK). This velocity is just fine in my other rifles,


M1a Super Match, 1:10" 22" Douglas barrel

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 43.5 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR

OAL 2.785

18 May 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 2700
Std Dev = 30
ES = 85
High = 2736
Low = 2651
N = 10

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 43.5 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC CCI 200
OAL 2.785

1 Feb 2014 T = 55 °F

Ave Vel = 2712
Std Dev = 8
ES = 22
High = 2723
Low = 2701
N = 5

Hornady FMJ's are actually pretty good for cheap bullets

Ball ammunition is not that good



This is really awful



Above average for a FMJ



Inconsistent. Cheap military FMJ fling shots



this load actually shot well with the 150 Hornady's

 

[AshMan40]

Primers lie. Ejector marks tend to tell the truth. Why load until you see "pressure signs" anyway?

My experience w/ .223 and 300 BLK has been primer flattening is the first sign of pressure and ejector swipe comes later. I can't recall ever seeing ejector marks BEFORE the primers started to flatten. Of course different makes/types of primers could mean a difference. .308 is the first time I'm working w/ Large Rifle primers. Maybe they are thicker so take more pressure to distort?
In the past I have typically found the best precision (smallest groups) at or near max listed loads for a round. Sometimes best precision came at less than max but not much less. And in all cases the max listed powder load is around where I start to see pressure signs. In many cases I have gone past max listed loads before I see pressure signs.
Part of the reason I chose to use CFE223 was it lists the highest fps in the reloading manuals giving me the widest range of charges to find the one that is most precise.

BTW, this is the very first time I have experienced stuck cases as a sign of over pressure. My mistake was reading it as a resizing problem instead of a pressure problem.

No, you can't use a chrono as a de-facto pressure gauge, depending on the pressure curve it may be under or over at a certain velocity. It's a tool that can be useful is all.

I guess my question is whether I should use fps in the same way as stuck cases; flattened primers and ejector marks? If I reach the max fps for the powder I'm using well before I reach the max listed powder charge do I stop and call it max even if there are no other pressure signs? I've not had access to a chrono previously and have always read the fired cases for signs. I was assuming the fps readings would be a more accurate way of judging how close I was to max pressures. Maybe I was wrong?

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I've no experience with that particular combo, but stuck cases and jumping extractors are classic symptoms of a load that is just too hot.

 

[Walkalong]

I was assuming the fps readings would be a more accurate way of judging how close I was to max pressures. Maybe I was wrong?

I already said yes, and posters who shoot a lot of rifle (@jmr40 @Grumulkin @Slamfire), have also told you that you are loading too hot. If it were me, I would listen to them, they know what they are talking about.

 

[z7]

How many once fired 7.62 cases have you resized since shaving the shell holder?

I have used some 7.62 cases (LC 11 headstamp) that was fired in a 240 machine gun,

To get it to chamber i had to use a small base die and anneal the brass, it is very tough brass that has been ballooned out in a machine gun chamber.

If you have any unloaded brass, try chambering it, if the bolt is hard to close that could be part of the problem

I have found that for most uses, Winchester 308 brass isn’t half bad, I have 6 firings on my current batch and the primer pockets are starting to go, I will probably call it quits this after 7 shots, it is cheap enough to make it forgivable

 

[right winger]

Hello Sir,
I complete agree with Slamfire and Walkalong about lowering your charge to 46gr with a 150 gr FMJBT in military brass but you also stated you were seating to 2.700 and that is way too short - you need to go to at least 2.775” in my opinion up to 2.80” and that should also relieve some pressure. Be safe.

 

[Bfh_auto]

My experience w/ .223 and 300 BLK has been primer flattening is the first sign of pressure and ejector swipe comes later. I can't recall ever seeing ejector marks BEFORE the primers started to flatten. Of course different makes/types of primers could mean a difference. .308 is the first time I'm working w/ Large Rifle primers. Maybe they are thicker so take more pressure to distort?
In the past I have typically found the best precision (smallest groups) at or near max listed loads for a round. Sometimes best precision came at less than max but not much less. And in all cases the max listed powder load is around where I start to see pressure signs. In many cases I have gone past max listed loads before I see pressure signs.
Part of the reason I chose to use CFE223 was it lists the highest fps in the reloading manuals giving me the widest range of charges to find the one that is most precise.

BTW, this is the very first time I have experienced stuck cases as a sign of over pressure. My mistake was reading it as a resizing problem instead of a pressure problem.


I guess my question is whether I should use fps in the same way as stuck cases; flattened primers and ejector marks? If I reach the max fps for the powder I'm using well before I reach the max listed powder charge do I stop and call it max even if there are no other pressure signs? I've not had access to a chrono previously and have always read the fired cases for signs. I was assuming the fps readings would be a more accurate way of judging how close I was to max pressures. Maybe I was wrong?

CFE223 has given me pressure signs before reaching Hogdon data Max.
It also is not a powder you want to push to the limit. It goes from slight pressure signs to stuck cases in 2 tenths of a grain in my experience .

You didn't say if you trimmed your cases. And like others said military cases in 308 are lower capacity.

 

[AshMan40]

Just an FYI, the Lyman case gauges that I have only check case length and headspace. A fired case can be inserted and the distance the case head protrudes from the case tell you the amount the case stretches - in that gun. This allows you to determine how much shoulder bump is needed. The gauge internal diameter is larger than SAAMI specs, so that fired rounds will fit. As a result, the gauge will not insure that the case will fit in any give rifle.

There are true chamber gauges, Hornady and Sheridan come to mind.

Are we talking about the same thing? The Lyman Single Caliber Ammo Checker for .308 WIN is a cylinder that the case or cartridge is inserted.

If the resized case is long in any dimension it will stick out the ends. If the case is too wide it won't fit all the way in, again sticking out the end.
It doesn't make sense having a tool that allows a case larger than SAAMI spec to fit and seat all the way. The description from the tool... "They are machined from solid aluminum and cut with custom tooling to SAAMI minimum chamber tolerances." That tells me if my resized case fits in the Ammo Checker it will fit all rifles w/ a SAAMI spec chamber.
My resized cases that fit in the Ammo Checker also chamber in the rifle and the bolt will close.
I tried dropping a fired case into the Ammo Checker and it doesn't fit... as I expected.

How many once fired 7.62 cases have you resized since shaving the shell holder?

I have used some 7.62 cases (LC 11 headstamp) that was fired in a 240 machine gun...

I've only resized about 2 dozen cases since shaving the shell holder. Since doing this a larger % of resized cases fit the first time into the Ammo Checker. Some still require a second pass thru the resizing die. The LC cases seem to be harder than the other brass I have. The batch of once-fired cases I bought where mostly LC and the ad clearly said it wasn't fired from a machine gun. But who knows?
I'll go thru all the resized brass and segregate out those that don't easily drop into the Ammo Checker. The reloading of .308 is really turning out to be more cumbersome than .223.

Someone asked if I was trimming my brass... yes. I'm trimming to 2.011-2.013". Max case length is 2.015".

Someone suggested that the crimps may be an issue. As part of measuring the loaded case dimensions I confirmed the diameter at the case mouth is less than 0.343" at the top and bottom of the neck on every case I've measured. The diameter at the shoulder is 0.454" or less so it doesn't look like the crimping is bulging the cases.

At this point I'm pretty confident the case dimensions are fine if they fully seat inside the Ammo Checker after resizing. I'll sort out any that don't drop in. Also, I have a RCBS small base X-die in .308 WIN on the way. This should ensure the cases will fit inside any .308 chamber and should minimize case growth (if the X-die works as advertised).


As suggested I'm pulling the bullets from the remaining loaded cartridges and will recharge them starting from 45.0gr of CFE223 which, according to the Hornady manual should put me in the 2500fps range. I'll work up from there assuming the cases aren't still getting stuck. Also, I'll skip the neck crimping step this time around.

One note... while the Hornady manual has a starting charge all the way down at 42.4gr of CFE223... the Hodgdon data for CFE223 has the starting load for 150gr bullets at 48.4gr. That's nearly the same charge that I was using but still experiencing stuck cases! So starting from 45.0gr will be BELOW the Hodgdon starting load, but I agree that is a small risk considering the data.

Agreed that NATO cases may have a smaller volume AND the Hodgdon data has the COAL at 2.800" instead of the 2.700" I was using (Hornady COAL data), but you'd think you would be safe at the Hodgdon starting load charge??!

I probably won't get out to the range until the weekend. I'm hoping to get some usable chrono data along with loads that function. But I'm taking along my plastic mallet... just in case.

 

[z7]

@AshMan40

Use your chamber as a case gauge, that will confirm if your brass is resized properly for Your chamber

Loading for 308 isn’t that hard, but if your components are fighting you it’s a pain.

 

[Toprudder]

Are we talking about the same thing? The Lyman Single Caliber Ammo Checker for .308 WIN is a cylinder that the case or cartridge is inserted.
View attachment 822796

Ok, what you have IS a true case gauge. What I was talking about are the headspace gauges. You insert a case into both of them, but the ones I was talking about only check distance to the shoulder, and overall length of the case. They are reamed larger in diameter than the case gauge you have, so that you can measure the distance to the shoulder of fired cases, which can be used to determine the headspacing of your gun (how much the brass stretched when fired). The only reason I mentioned it is that some people buy the headspace gauges thinking they are getting a true case gauge. IMHO, anyone loading for rifle should have both.

Lyman Headspace Gauge:
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/472973/lyman-case-length-headspace-gauge

Those are the only Lyman gauges that I have. I bought the Hornady case gauges to measure SAAMI spec.

 

[forrest r]

Sounds like you need to start over & re-think/re-do your whole process. When I get a new/new to me centerfire rifle I like to take a box of factory ammo to the range and test the rifle for function. Get the scope dialed in (if it has 1) and run the rounds over a chronograph. This gives me a baseline for that rifle, IE I ran a box of fiocchi 150gr fmjbt ammo that was rated @ 2890fps in my compass rifle and it averaged 2690fps. Now you know the rifle functions correctly, have a baseline of velocity to match to a bullet and most importantly, you have 20 empty cases to measure that are from the chamber of your rifle.

Take a small piece of round stock, flat stock,& drill a 11/32 hole in it. Take your mic of calipers and measure the neck of the fired cases. Put the piece of stock with the hole drilled in it over the neck so it sits on the shoulder of the case and measure the distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the piece of stock with the 11/32 hole in it. Heck a 380acp case will work. Measure all 20 cases and write those #'s down.

Now setup your fl sizing die making sure you remove the de-prime pin and expander, lube a couple of the 200 cases you bought. Run 1 of them up in your fl die. Measure the neck of the sized case & compare that # to the #'s you got from the 20 fired cases. It will be a real eye opener!!! Next put the pice of stock with the 11/32 hole in it on the case you just sized and measure the oal (bottom of the case to the top of the stock). Compare that # to the nubers you wrote down from the 20 fired cases. Just for the heck of it take another 1 of the lubed 200 cases you have and fl size it. Then turn that sized case 90* and re-size it again. Then put the piece of stock on that double sized case and measure the oal of it. Adjust your fl sizing die up or down until you get to where the oal of the fl sized case is 1/1000th's to 2/1000th's shorter than the 20 fired factory cases. Now use your rifle as a case gauge and put the fl sized cases in the rifle and close the bolt. There should be no resistance when closing the bolt on the fl sized cases. What you want to do is move the fl sizing die up or down at this point until you feel a slight resistance when closing the bolt. Then give the fl die a 1/16th turn and re-test the fl case in your rifle. No resistance your good to go. Size 10 more cases and test them in the rifle. All 10 should have no problem. I always double size and rifle brass that wasn't fired in my rifle. fl size & turn 90* and run it up again in the fl sizing die. Once you've established the correct fl sizing die adjustment, put the primer knockout pin & expander ball back in and size all the cases.

I never cared what the book oal was I always checked my bullet/rifle combo seeing what the max oal is for that bbl/bullet combo. Find the max oal with the bullet your using by seating the bullet long in a dummy round and chambering the dummy round. Keep doing this until the bolt closes with minimal force/a slight resistance. Now measure the max oal for your rifle and compare that # to the book #'s. Ideally, you want your max oal to be longer than what the book/reloading manual lists/recommends. They make compareator tools specifically for finding the oal of bullets or simply shaveturn the outsize of a 308w cases neck down and use a 303brit/.310 expander on that case. Leave the primer out this is now a test case. Put the bullet in question in the test case. put it in the chamber of your rifle (bolt removed) a use a piece of wire inserted in the primer hole to push the bullet forward until it's stopped by the rifles leade/riflings. Mark the wire & remove the test case & bullet. Put the wire back in your test case to the mark you put n it and seat the bullet until it bottoms out on that wire. Measure that # and write it down, 30 different bullets ='s 30 different oal's. Myself I like to use rcbs dies for the 308w, I load jacketed and lead/cast bullets for the 308w. I called rcbs and asked them if I could buy a larger expander (.310/303brit) for my .311" & .310" cast bullets. They said no they wouldn't sell me 1 but if I gave them my address they'll ship one for free. 10 days later there was a brand new .310' expander ball complete with the threaded rod and nuts on the end along with extra primer knockout pins.

Dies are adjusted correctly for the chamber of the rifle, CHECK
Established the MAX oal for the bullet I plan on using in that rifle, CHECK
Time to look at some reloading data. Typically I like to use common powders/known powders when I reload for a rifle for the 1st time along with common bullets. The 150gr fmj was an excellent choice for the 308w, the cfe223 not so much. A pound of 4064/h4895/3031 would of been a much better choice. Tons of data out the with those powders, a # of powder doesn't last long in the 308w. But you would of gotten enough reloads out of that # of powder to establish an excellent baseline for the life of that rifle. Different bullets will act differently pressure wise in the same rifle. OAL's can be close, the bullets weight can be the same. It comes down to the difference in the bullets construction (jacket material/thickness/core alloy/etc) and the difference in the bearing surfaces of the bullets.

Points of reloading data:
hodgdon website
24" bbl 2.800" oal 150gr nos bt bullet H4895 powder
start ='s 42.6gr/2742fps max ='s 47.3gr/2920fps

Hornady #4 manual
22" bbl 2.777" oal 150gr fmjbt bullet h4895 powder
start='s 38.5gr/2400fps max ='s 42.7gr/2700fps

lyman 50th reloading manual
24"bbl 2.735" oal 150gr flat bottomed jacketed sp h4895 powder
start ='s 40gr/2403fps max ='s 45gr/2777fps

speer #12
22" bbl 2.800" oal 150gr fmjbt h4895 powder
start ='s 41gr/2554fps max ='s 45gr/2776fps

Starting out with a common bullet and common powders that reloaders have used for decades would have give you a solid and predictable place to start reloading for your 308w. If it was me I would of used the 38.5gr load and the 40.0gr load and tested 10 of each over a chronograph. 2700fps from a 22" bbl'd 308w pushing a 150gr bullets is realistic #'s.

Anyway good luck with it, hope you get everything sorted out.

 

[25-20 WCF]

There was nothing wrong with the OP’s choice of powder. Plenty of published data for it, plenty of experience. No need to choose a powder that’s been around for 70 years - today’s H4895 isn’t the same as it was in 1950 anyway.

His die adjustment isn’t the problem. The bullet isn’t the problem. Based on the OP’s statements it appears he has too much powder in the cases he chose. Could have been too much H4895 or W748 or whatever. He’s gotten some good advice in the first part of this thread, now we need to wait to hear how he makes out by following it. Of course if his powder scale or dispenser is not working right, we’ll have no idea what’s happening....


.

 

[forrest r]

There was nothing wrong with the OP’s choice of powder. Plenty of published data for it, plenty of experience. No need to choose a powder that’s been around for 70 years - today’s H4895 isn’t the same as it was in 1950 anyway.

His die adjustment isn’t the problem. The bullet isn’t the problem. Based on the OP’s statements it appears he has too much powder in the cases he chose. Could have been too much H4895 or W748 or whatever. He’s gotten some good advice in the first part of this thread, now we need to wait to hear how he makes out by following it. Of course if his powder scale or dispenser is not working right, we’ll have no idea what’s happening....


.

Of course there's nothing wrong with the op's powder choice. He was merely looking for the powder that gave the highest velocities instead of known velocities. Couple that with expectations of getting 2900fps+ from a 22" bbl'd 308w pushing a 150gr bullet.
Yup tons of data out there for cfe223 compared to those old out of date powders like h4895 or 4064. Along with that old data about realistic/real world velocities that can be proved for decades in more reloading books, reloading guides & magazines you can shake a stick at.
I'm glad you think his "die adjustment" isn't the problem. Everyone uses a grinder on the shell holder to get the cases to size down enough to fit a gun. This might come as a BIG surprise but I've never had to grind anything off of a shell holder or die sets to get them to resize a shell casing to the correct size to fit any firearm I've ever owned.
Hard to believe the op used too much powder with all that data out there. Hard to believe the op expected to get 2900fps+ with that bullet/bbl combo with all that data out there. Hard to believe the op had to use a mallet to open the bolt on that new/unknown rifle with all that data out there for that bullet/powder combo.

I know it's kinda silly to error on the side of caution and take a little time to measure the spent factory cases along with what comes out of a sizing die. But doing so tells the person measuring things like if the chamber is in spec & if the reloading dies are in spec. Myself I have a set of go/no-go gauges for the 308w & I check every new/new to me firearm with them before I take them out in the field. Even with the gauges I still measure the spent cases to find out the dimensions of the chamber in the rifle. And of course finding out the true max oal of a bullet/bbl combo is is probably being overly cautious but it's something that doesn't hurt anything either.

After reading your post it probably is a bad idea to take the time to measure anything. Spend $30 on a pound of powder that you can easily get 10+ data points from to read/compare/make an informed opinion along with realistic expectations. And if it don't work don't bother finding out if the new firearm might have a headspace issue file down the shell holder.

Not picking on anyone, just don't understand how anyone could think that grinding down shell holders is a good idea. Or using a powder with limited data and having to use a mallet to open the bolt on a firearm is ok.

Myself, I tend to error on the side of caution and for the 1st +/- 170 rounds in that new 308w I would of used a "70 year old powder", measured everything, checked the headspace, checked for max oal and used the starting loads from 2 different dat points for the 1st reloads I shot in that new rifle. Doing so would of gave me real world results to compare to the data I have on hand along with more cases to check/measure/setup the neck sizing die with.

Well good luck with it, try to be safe and not have to use a mallet to open/close the bolt on your new rifle. A new mold I ordered awhile back came in today. It's a copy of the Eagan mx4-30a bullet/mold that I already have. The new mold is a hp mold that will cast a +/- 170gr bullet for the 308w.


Don't know if it can hold up to the pressures of the loads with the weak point being the small core/center at the large lube groove.

Going to work loads up to the 2700fps range with this 170gr cast hp in my 308w.

 

[AshMan40]

So I have an update. Maybe someone can tell me if this normal, or not....

I've been trying to sort my FL resized brass into a collection of cases that fit easily into the Lyman Ammo Checker and those that don't drop in and fit without some pressure.
Next I take the ones that fit easily and drop the empty cases into my rifle and close the bolt on the case. This is similar to the suggestions above that the rifle chamber be the ultimate gauge. Now here is where things get interesting. Since all of these empty cases fit into the Ammo Checker they should fit into any chamber that meets the minimum SAAMI spec. Most of these cases drop into my chamber and the bolt easily closes on the case. But for a few, the bolt won't rotate and close on the case. The bolt won't rotate even a little without real effort, and I don't force it. And for one case, after pushing the bolt fully forward and encountering resistance in rotating the bolt handle I tried to pull back and open the bolt... and it is stuck. This is an empty FL resized case that has fit easily into the Ammo Checker! I broke out the micrometer and all exterior measurements on this case are at the SAAMI case dimensions, or smaller. To extract the empty case I needed to use my plastic mallet AGAIN!

So my bolt is not closing on a case that has been FL resized. It was resized using a shell holder that has been shaved 0.002" which means the shoulder should be 0.002" further back than the die itself would have made. And the case has passed the Ammo Checker test. Did I miss a step here? The bolt is stuck closed (not rotated) and requires a tap with a mallet to open. This doesn't sound normal to me. Since I've yet to even charge these cases this is NOT a problem with too much powder. And in case you ask, I had just finished cleaning/oiling the barrel and chamber thoroughly before I started testing the empty cases. I even disassembled the bolt according to the manual and lubed all the wear spots.

I closely inspected this problem case and the only thing I can see is there is a dent in the case body below the shoulder. I went back to those cases that failed the Ammo Checker test. These case dimensions all measured within SAAMI spec (some at spec) but ALL have a dent in the case body. Not a crease, just a small dent.
I have seen similar dents in my 223 cases when they hit the case deflector or hit the ground. These get pressed out when the case is next fire formed. Since they are not on the shoulder I never give these a thought unless they are noticeably deep.

Are bolt action chambers more sensitive to dents in the case body? My experience is only with reloading for semi-auto rifles, which don't seem to care if there are small dents in the case.


As a comparison, I opened a new box of Federal Premium Gold Medal Sierra MatchKing (175gr Sierra MatchKing bullets) and measured the rounds... every dimension is at least 0.003" less than the SAAMI spec. I'm sure this is to ensure the boxed ammo will fit all chambers. These new boxed rounds freely drop in and freely drop out of the Ammo Checker. My resized cases freely drop into the Ammo Checker, but most do NOT freely drop out. Clearly my resized cases are within the SAAMI spec but wider/fatter than the Federal rounds so they fit snugly. A new box of Monarch .308 SP also show dimensions smaller than my resized cases. The Federal and Monarch rounds all fit my rifle chamber, the bolt locks and the rounds extract easily. I want that same consistency with my reloads.
My RCBS small base resizing die should get here tomorrow. I'll start FL resizing using that die and see if it solves the problem. At this point I'm just trying to produce reloads that will fit into my rifle so I can fire form them (at a safe pressure) and then start neck sizing them going forward. With my current Lee FL resizing die I can't produce cartridges that consistently fit my rifle chamber like the boxed rounds do.

I see the suggestion above on measuring the headspacing dimension of the fire formed case compared to a resized case and to adjust the FL sizing die to produce a shoulder that just fits into my chamber. That's a good idea. I had already ordered a Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Kit. It should get here tomorrow. The plan was to get a collection of fire formed cases that fit my chamber and then only neck size the cases going forward. But having the FL resizing die adjusted to create cases that are a perfect fit for my rifle sounds like a good idea to minimize the case stretch.

 

[forrest r]

FWIW:
It's always a good thing to take a little time and measure everything from the start. It will be the difference between moa & 1/2moa accuracy when everything gets dialed in. A 308w can have as much as 10/1000th's difference in the shoulder height of the case length & still be in specs. Factory ammo tends to be 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's under minimum tolerances from the base of the case to the top of the shoulder. It becomes luck of the draw with a factory rifle, if your headspace is set at minimum your rifle will be fairly accurate with most ammo's & have higher velocities than a rifle with a max headspace. Max headspace ='s the cartridge shoulder has to move 12/1000th's to 13/1000th's just to seal the chamber. When you set your dies up to bump the shoulder back 2/1000th's max, good things happen. Myself I target 1/1000th's.

The neck area of the 308w chamber is huge, that's why I asked about measuring spent cases & then measure how much you're sizing/overworking your brass. But another thing to measure is a loaded round compared to the spent case. You'll find a +/- 4/1000th's difference between the chamber dimension & a loaded round. That's why it's a good idea to find the max oal of a bullet for your chamber. You want the bullet to be in the chamber's throat to aid in aligning the bullet to the bore. The long angle in the lands is where the bullet will rest/sit/align in the picture below. The picture is of a custom chamber/throat cut in a custom 308w bbl.


Ideally what you want is the resized brass to be sized down so that the shoulder is set back no more than 2/1000th's and the bullets oal so that it's no more than 10/1000th's of the lands max. The only way to get these #'s is to measure. But by measuring you will also know if your rifles chamber is in spec. Couple that with it's always easier to find the accuracy nodes when you've taken the slop/play out of play. This is why a lot of bolt action users only neck size.their brass. Neck sizing works but it can only do so much.

Anyway take a little time and get into the brass tacks of what your doing. Garbage in garbage out. Get everything dialed in and learn/understand what you're looking at. The end result is not only knowledge, your targets will show the quality of your labor.

 

[forrest r]

I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops and I want Ashman40 to not only be safe I want him to accel with any bolt action rifle. It all starts with a good foundation of brass/chambers/bullets. Decades ago I learned a thing or 2 burning out a couple 300mag bbl.'s & I'm glad I took the time to learn. You don't have to have the best components, high $$$ firearms or reloading equipment. How to use them to your advantage goes a long way.
Ashman40 picked up an excellent rifle, was looking at them myself but in the end I didn't buy 1. Nothing wrong with the rifle was looking at it to make an adapter to put on the threaded bbl to be able to mount a tuner on the end of the bbl. The bbl on the t/c compass is a sporter contour, too thin for a tuner.
Cheap firearm/free brass/free bullets. looking for moa on a budget
A couple of years ago I decided to start swaging my own 224 bullets for the 223rem. They are made from free22lr cases & free lead from the berm.

Went out and bought a $300 savage axis hb to test those home swaged bullets in. The axis had a $50 mail in rebate & I sold the scope that came with it for another $50. So now I had free bullets and a rifle I had $218 in. Went to the range and picked up a bunch of 223rem brass that was laying around, sorted the free range brass into 2 piles commercial & nato. Decided to use the mixed nato brass and made up 20 rounds and hit the range to dial the scope in I put on it, test the rifle for function & have 20 pieces of brass to measure to set the dies up & check the chamber dimensions. Never did adjust the trigger but I did set the torques on the action screws.

So I got the free brass to work up to the chamber of that savage rifle, free bullets to use made from 22lr cases & the rifle check out. So I decided on a 70 year old powder (bl-c2) to use for the 1st ladder test in the rifle. 25.5gr to 26.5gr of bl-c2 has always delivered moa accuracy in every bolt action 223rem I tried it in. This savage axis was no different. $218 in a rifle, free mixed nato brass pickup's, free bullets made from 22lr cases & free lead from the berm.

While that target is nothing to write home about, it didn't take long to see if I could get moa accuracy out of a cheap rifle on a budget Budget ='s $.07 a round. A closeup of that 25.5gr load of that 70 year old powder/5-shot group


You don't need the best rifles/powders/primers/cases/bullets/etc. What you do need is to be able to use them to the best of your ability. Was hoping to get moa accuracy out of a bunch of junk components other people thru away & ended up with 3 bullets in 1 hole/.870"+/- 5-shot group on the 1st outing with a rifle that didn't even have 60 rounds down the tube.

308w bbl #1
Don't know a lot about the 308w, still learning. The 308w really isn't the best choice for cast bullets with the short case necks. Decided to do a little testing and see just how fast I could drive cast bullets and what kind of accuracy I can get with them. So I bought a single shot 308w that was used by the Canadian rifle team in the 60's. The bbl was shot out but I did do a little testing with it.

308w bbl #2
I re-barreled it with a 20" bull bbl'd 1 in 10 twist 300/308. Did a bunch of testing with it, made and tested swaging dies & bump dies learning how to get the most out of the bullet/throat engagement. The hardest part of getting an accurate load from a cast bullet is when the short start pressure hits it. The nose of the bullet is in the lands and twisting while the back of the bullet is in the case & ball throat being bumped up in diameter from the pressure of the load. This rotational torque destroys accuracy of the cast bullets before they can even move 1" down the bbl. (keep this in mind with jacketed bullets hence slower softer pushing powders with longer bullets). A as cast bullet and the same bullet run thru a bump die testing the angle of the bump die. The better the bullet sits in the bbl.'s throat engages the lands the less the bullet will be affected by the rotational torque.

The final thing I did with that bbl is to take a 3/4* throating reamer and re-cut the throat and re-test the best loads I had to that point seeing if there was an increase in velocity without loosing accuracy.

308w bbl #3
Bought a 25" varmint contoured bbl with a 1 in 11 twist 301/308. Wanted to see if the slower twist and larger bore did anything for a cast bullet @ high pressure/high velocity. There was no real world difference between the 1 in 10 bbl and this bbl. The .301 lands juct couldn't hold the cast bullet. But I did want this bbl for another project to use run 175gr smk's in. But that's another 308 & another rifle for another day.

308w bbl #4
Decided to go with a 1 in 14 twist for cast bullets (155gr smk's also) so I ordered a 1 in 14 twist 30" varmint contour 300/308 bbl with a match .340" chamber. Re-set the scope up with 30moa built into it and started testing cast bullets in it. Haven't really gotten very far with it. Got 2000+fps moa 10-shot groups @ 100yds and a bunch of 1 1/2" 10-shot 2600+fps groups @ 100yds. This will be the 2nd season of testing with this bbl, got around 2 months and 3 different bullets/3 different powders in with it last year.

Why all this???
To some it's a cheap rifle, simply get cheap components and get it up and running. To me it's an excellent platform to learn from and is only limited by the knowledge of the person doing it.

 

[AshMan40]

Appreciate all the suggestions on improving performance and getting the best precision out of my reloads. At this point I'm just trying to get a consistent reloaded cartridge that always functions thru MY rifle. I'll step up to improved precision as a next step.

My experience w/ full length resizing dies are they produce a case with dimensions similar to new. Able to fit into any chamber that is to SAAMI spec. I'd expect the dimensions to be slightly smaller than SAAMI. I'm confused that with my .308 WIN dies appear to be producing cases that are right at the SAAMI spec. That would suggest the cases may not work in all chambers.

As a comparison, I opened a new box of Federal Premium Gold Medal Sierra MatchKing (175gr Sierra MatchKing bullets) and measured the rounds... every dimension is at least 0.003" less than the SAAMI spec. I'm sure this is to ensure the boxed ammo will fit all chambers. These new boxed rounds freely drop in and freely drop out of the Ammo Checker. My resized cases freely drop into the Ammo Checker, but most do NOT freely drop out. Clearly my resized cases are within the SAAMI spec but wider/fatter than the Federal rounds so they fit snugly. A new box of Monarch .308 SP also show dimensions smaller than my resized cases. The Federal and Monarch rounds all fit my rifle chamber, the bolt locks and the rounds extract easily. I want that same consistency with my reloads.

So the out of box rounds are measurably smaller than the SAAMI spec, presumably for reliable loading in all chambers.
My resized cases are AT SAAMI specs in some dimensions (mostly the diameter at the shoulder (0.454") and the diameter 0.200" above the base (0.470").. so basically the case body OD is exactly to SAAMI spec). Is there a way to adjust the resizing die to decrease the resulting case dimensions? What has been described as pushing the shoulder back another couple thousands. This is what I was attempting to do by shaving the top off the shell holder by 0.002". I'm hesitant to shave more. Is there another way to adjust the resulting case dimensions?

My Lee resizing die is installed per instructions (1/4 turn more than just contacting the ram shell holder). When resizing I made sure there was no visible gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die.
I'll try to crank it down a bit more and see if it produces smaller/more reliable cases. I'll compare this with the cases produced with the new RCBS die when it gets here.