U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to delist wolves nationwide in a few weeks

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Paco42 said:
Uh, no, not really. It’s more or less a matter of misinterpreting occasional behavior of some animals as constant, beyond-habitual behavior of all. Any notion that wolves—or other large predators—frequently and routinely kill, especially larger prey, such as deer, elk, etc., just for “fun” is simply not backed up by evidence.
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Paco, I've been there. I know cats and I know dogs and I know when they are enjoying themselves. Killing & tormenting prey for fun is part of their makeup. And I have seen the evidence when a wild predator (yote & bobcat) does similarly. Don't have that on video, but the sign is unmistakable. Such behavior has been documented with other predators. Somehow I doubt the larger and wilder variants of dogs & cats somehow lost a characteristic shared by their closest relatives and by so many other predators around the world.

Killing for fun doesn't make Canadian wolves introduced to CONUS evil, but it does throw a monkey wrench into the calculations of those who don't account for it, if they are trying to figure out how many / how much prey a pack of predators will kill over time & space. One thing you learn is that when reality/empiricism clashes with theory, it is the theory that is flawed.

Get your nose out of your books and into the real world.
 
WrongHanded said:
Wolves existed along with deer, elk and moose for thousands of years before Europeans came to the continent. If wolves were an extinction level threat to wild ungulates, how do deer elk and moose even exist? Why weren't they wiped out by wolves before white men first set foot here?

Wild predators balance the ecosystem in a way we humans cannot. Their populations just need to be controlled around areas of human activity.
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^^^This.


Aim1 said:
Especially in Minnesota where wolves have decimated deer and moose populations.]
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The only native species to ever really decimate, exterminate or make a species extinct by hunting, is man. Man still kills the majority of deer and other big game in the lower 48. In my state, cars kill as many deer every year as do the wolves. Yet we are quick to blame the wolf when we don't see deer coming out of the woodwork towards our bait pile. Ma Nature does not let wolves completely eradicate game in their area. She does allow man to. Biggest reason for the war between man and wolf is the competition for similar prey. Ain't about the danger to their kids. Wonder why it is folks that actually live in the wild(like native Americans at the time of Columbus) had so much respect and worshiped animals like the wolf, if and when, they were such a threat? No, modern man hates the wolf because he takes away their "easy" deer kill. Man hates the wolf because he reduces the number of deer in an area to realistic numbers and not the artificially inflated numbers most hunters want to see. I agree, wolves need to be controlled and hunted to keep numbers in check and to keep their fear of humans. But in areas where access does not let humans keep deer numbers in realistic check, they are an asset. In realistic numbers they do not reduce the quality of the hunt, nor do they reduce hunter success greatly. Not for a average or above hunter anyway. This long overdue de-listing is a good thing, just as having wolves back in the habitat is. Unless you are Little Red Riding Hood that is.........
 
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Paco42 said:
Well, I’m not sure just who it is here whose only knowledge of large predators comes from “an agency who twist facts to further their agenda”, but let me assure you it isn’t me. I’ve spent much time in each of the areas mentioned, much of it alone, in the wilderness, or with small groups. I’ve observed and often had to deal with every large predator found in North America. I come from a farming/ranching family. I’ve seen dead cattle, sheep, dogs, chickens, goats, cats, and probably goldfish that were killed by predators ranging from bobcats and coyotes to bears and pumas. But I don’t rely only my own observations and experience. I also read, study, and listen. Next month I’ll be in bear country for a week. Most of this summer I’ll be where wolves howling is not an unexpected event, and most of that I’ll be far from paved roads and quilted comforters. I’ve come face-to-face with a mountain lion that wasn’t happy to see me. I’ve encountered bears that insisted on using the path through the woods I happened to be on. I’ve seen a cow moose with a calf stand her ground in front of a brown bear. I’ve watched a wolf pack chase down an elk in the snow. So let’s just quit attacking messengers, so to speak, and deal with facts.

Yes, sometimes a wolf pack (or other predator) will take a big, healthy animal. But more often, they take the first one they can get, because it’s easier, less risky, less costly to them in terms of time and energy. Nature, red in tooth and claw, as the saying goes, includes some nasty events, like a fawn being taken by a puma, say, or a wolf pack dragging down a doe. The mortality rate for young creatures often is quite high, by our way of thinking. But looked at a different way, let’s consider for a moment what would happen if the deer survival rate through the first two years was 80%.

A deer becomes able to reproduce at about a year of age. In an area with a reasonable population density—e.g., where deer aren’t quite rare—the fecundity rate amongst yearling does averages about 75-85%. In older deer, the number is about the same. Most does deliver either 1 or 2 fawns—average about 1.5. Starting with a population of 100 deer, 50 of which are yearling-or-older does, we see that after one year the population will have increased to about 125 (about 30-40 yearlings, with some of the adults having died from whatever causes), with about 60 does, +/-. In two years, the population is up to about 160, and in four years, the population will have approximately doubled. That rate of growth of the population is clearly unsustainable. If adding wolves brings the two-year survival rate of newborns down to 12.5%, that puts us in the realm of a stable population, as the natural attrition rate due to adult mortality in most populations is a bit below even that.

The evidence clearly shows that wolves, as participants in a suitable natural system, rarely if ever “destroy” the populations of deer, elk, moose, or other prey animals. Anecdotes of some type of event or another are merely, at best, small bits of data about a large and complex system. Systematized data collection, at an adequate scale, by objective observers, covering a wide range of carefully selected variables, is a scientific, not story-around-the-campfire, sort of approach. To pooh-pooh science because it doesn’t produce the conclusion you want is, well, it just ain’t smart.

Now let me be clear—I haven’t proposed turning wolves loose in Central Park, downtown Minneapolis, etc. Nor have I proposed a ban on wolf hunting. I’ve not offered an opinion about the de-listing of wolves from the ESA. Management of predator populations in the context of ranching and farming must be undertaken for the good of all concerned—rationally, responsibly, and with a view to the long-term health of ecosystems and the planet. But the notion that wolves are some sort of evil-incarnate creature is just plain silly.
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You don't say where you're from Paco, but I'm guessing that it's somewhere east of the Mississippi river. If you lived and hunted around Jackson Hole and Teton Park you'd have a completely different view. I believe in controlling wolf numbers too, as close to 0% as possible. Our ancestors had it right, they eliminated the wolves, and the Clinton administration and Bruce Babbit forced them on us without any input from Wyoming residents.
 
shootbrownelk said:
You don't say where you're from Paco, but I'm guessing that it's somewhere east of the Mississippi river. If you lived and hunted around Jackson Hole and Teton Park you'd have a completely different view. I believe in controlling wolf numbers too, as close to 0% as possible. Our ancestors had it right, they eliminated the wolves, and the Clinton administration and Bruce Babbit forced them on us without any input from Wyoming residents.
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Nope. Nebraska, South Dakota and Kansas, but mainly a Nebraskan. I’ve hunted in the Jackson Hole/Teton area, hiked and backpacked in & around there more. Even more familiar with the Bitterroots and northwest Montana, where I like to spend my summers. Sorry to disappoint you.
 
shootbrownelk said:
Come to Wyoming and take as many as you like back home with you. You'll soon regret that idea.
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Any more than when you westerners sent your invasive coyotes east of the Mississippi? :p Everyone said the invasive coyotes would destroy our fledgling reintroduced turkey populations (my family farm back in Ohio was part of that effort) and that has not proven true. Got coyotes, bobcats and turkeys all in plenty both back home in Ohio and now down here in Tennessee where I do my hunting now.
 
Patocazador said:
Do you want this running around your back yard?

Wisconsin before the wolf season was canceled about 7-8 yrs. ago.
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I already do. I live in Wisconsin and just a few miles from two major packs. Neighbor has a video of two wolves taking down a deer on the local lake ice a coupla winters ago. I live about 4 blocks from that lake. Your photos give credence to my statement about wolves not decimating deer herds nor reducing the quality of the hunt. BTW....there is a 500 cow dairy operation about a half mile as the wolf walks from my door and they have never had an issue with wolf depredation. Our wolves were not transplanted, they came back on their own from Minnesota and the U.P. They were here before the reintroduction in Yellowstone. Yet, a quarter century after local packs were confirmed, our deer population remains over goals in the area. Tremendous bucks are seen and taken every year. Deer numbers are so thick I refuse to ride motorcycle at night because of the high incidence of bike/deer crashes. We have more problems with wolf/dog hybrids raised for sale and then illegally released when there isn't enough demand. These are the animals not afraid to come into your yard and take your cat or your dog. These are the animals that attack local domestic animals.Still in most folks eyes they are those nasty wolves the DNR secretly planted back in the 90s.
 
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Paco42 said:
Nope. Nebraska, South Dakota and Kansas, but mainly a Nebraskan. I’ve hunted in the Jackson Hole/Teton area, hiked and backpacked in & around there more. Even more familiar with the Bitterroots and northwest Montana, where I like to spend my summers. Sorry to disappoint you.
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Not disappointed at all. Just can't figure out your stance if you're an elk hunter. We can agree to disagree, I hate wolves, they destroyed the elk herd in Grand Teton Park. I hunted there for decades until the mid 90's when they "Re-introduced" those killing machines to Wyoming. They all need to die IMO.
 
This threat will result in a big split between us.
There are those that are on my side of the fence that think wolves are bad news and then the tree huggers who love them.
I will not budge on my view of these major predators. It is not up to us, the tree hugging game deptarments will get what they want.
In my personal view the only good wolf is a DEAD WOLF.

I,m about done with this thread like the California guy getting fined $20,000 for illegally shooting a blacktail buck.
Another post or two and I'm done, I won't waste my time in a pissing match.
You guys have your view, I have mine. So be it.
 
Highland Lofts said:
This threat will result in a big split between us.
There are those that are on my side of the fence that think wolves are bad news and then the tree huggers who love them.
I will not budge on my view of these major predators. It is not up to us, the tree hugging game deptarments will get what they want.
In my personal view the only good wolf is a DEAD WOLF.
Another post or two and I'm done, I won't waste my time in a pissing match.
You guys have your view, I have mine. So be it.
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I'm thinking you meant thread, so my reply will be accordingly. There will always be a split between folks on the topic of wolves. Every thread ever started here ends up the same. The topic is not the real cause of any split or hard feelings. Reducing one's posts to name calling and belittling, instead of civil discussion, is what turn these threads into your so called "pissing match". The term "tree hugger" is generally used to denote an extremist and has a negative connotation. Comes from those days when folks used to chain themselves to trees to keep logging companies from destroying forests that they deemed too important to destroy. Yet, folks who support the saving of the rain forests for the better of the earth are not generally considered that same kind of extremist. I have been a hunter for over half a century. An avid bow hunter for most of that time....about 51 years. I have helped teach Hunter Safety to new hunters for about 30 years. I'm also an avid fisher and forager. I consider myself an outdoorsman, sportsman, conservationist and a steward to mother earth. I have no problem killing when hunting and support keeping all animal populations to manageable numbers. In my area the taking of large predator fish from area lakes is the biggest issue we have with nuisance and invasive species. Those same large Muskies my grandfather used to shoot when caught, because he and other fishers at the time believed they ate all of their precious walleyes, are now being released because they are considered not only a true trophy fishery, but are considered to be an important part of the food chain and the ecology of the water they live in. Took folks a while to understand this. In the past, folks wanted them all gone too and desired to see other fish populations above normal carrying capacities. Just made it easier for the average or poor fisherman to catch something. Old ideas die hard. Ain't just so called "tree huggers" that support a balanced ecology these days, especially on lands that are hard or impossible to manage otherwise. The idea that wolves need to come off the endangered list and be hunted again came from knowledge, just like the idea that they are also a important part of our wildlife ecology.

We are all entitled to our opinions and have the right to openly express them. Once we start calling others names, we have lowered ourselves below the point of having our opinion considered legitimate. Once we start calling each other names on these types of forums, the thread generally gets closed. So odds are........a coupla more posts like yours above, and we'll all be done.
 
buck460XVR said:
Wisconsin's last open season was in 2014. The state has already started their proposal for the 2020 season.



The stupid still do. Poachers still seem to have the desire to show their buddies what they kill. Usually what gets them caught.
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There is a big difference between a poacher and someone protecting pets, livestock and, in many cases, their income.
When a large predator is shot in the guts with a 22lr there are no photos taken and other predators and scavengers take care of the rest, or so I hear.
 
As a Minnesota resident I am firmly against wolves. A friends flock of turkeys was almost totally wiped out by a female wolf and young that killed for sport. I am disgusted by the Walt Disney complex some of you have. Wolves are not vegetarians. They kill anything. Not just the weak either. They are clever and vicious killers. You come and get them. Like others have said, those that like them don't know anything about them and don't have them.
 
d2wing said:
As a Minnesota resident I am firmly against wolves. A friends flock of turkeys was almost totally wiped out by a female wolf and young that killed for sport. I am disgusted by the Walt Disney complex some of you have. Wolves are not vegetarians. They kill anything. Not just the weak either. They are clever and vicious killers. You come and get them. Like others have said, those that like them don't know anything about them and don't have them.
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I am not trying to change anyone's minds just making observations/questions and stating my opinion for what little its worth.

We kill for sport, don't we? I mean we don't need to kill deer, turkey or squirrel to survive, it is sport and we eat the meat out of respect and not being wasteful but it is primarily a recreation activity for most hunters here in the US? Nothing in nature goes to waste so if the wolf does not eat it something else will.

The fact that they are killers does not bother me in the least. Of the wild animal I admire, most are predators. As far as the animal world goes wolves are not the best or the least well behaved animal going when judge from the human perspective/values.

Where the turkey in an enclosure or pen? It is fairly well documented that wolves (and many other predators) will kill every pray animal they can catch if the prey can't get away. Typical the prey runs away so they kill one prey animal and stop to eat it and then go hunt more. If the predator has gotten into a pen with a bunch of prey that can't run away it sort of hot wires their instincts and they kill everything they can see.
 
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mcb said:
Where the turkey in an enclosure or pen? It is fairly well documented that wolves (and many other predators) will kill every pray animal they can catch if the prey can't get away. Typical the prey runs away so they kill one prey animal and stop to eat it and then go hunt more. If the predator has gotten into a pen with a bunch of prey that can't run away it sort of hot wires their instincts and they kill everything they can see.
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Yep, most animals do not have a sense of time spanning days. Or the self awareness to realize that "One Turkey is all I need to eat today. I'll come back for another one tomorrow." And when we understand the limits of their cognitive abilities where resources and time are concerned, it's much easier to understand. They kill every Turkey available, because they are driven to do so by instinct. Not because it's "Fun". "Fun" is a human thing, and quite rare in the rest of the animal kingdom.
 
Apparently some of you have never seen a wolf kill. Packs or individuals don't bother to kill before they feed. Larger prey animal often are eaten alive. Those of you that "respect" predators have never been a farmer or lived in rural areas where your livestock, pets are in danger as well as safety of small children, as well as loss of wild game that many of us depend on to supplement our food supplies. My sympathies lie with the animals that provide for my family and add to the beauty of nature, not useless vicious killers. Just today my son commented on the wild game in his freezer from our hunting. He has been hired as an settlement manager for a large investment company but he can't start because of the virus. It is easy to pontificate from your easy chair in some city about those folks that live with real issues. Some of you folks are on the wrong side of nature in my book.
 
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