Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon

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mec

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This is a copy of the Third Model Dragoon- the revolver that evolved from the 1847 Walker and stayed in Colt production until 1860 or 61 when it was replaced by a smaller army model. According to R.L.Wilson the third model began production in 1851 while other sources date it as early as 1848. The barrel is 7.5"- 2" shorter than the Walker and the cylinder 1/4" shorter. The Walker weighs 4lb 9oz while this model weighs 4lb 20z. The name "Dragoon" was applied by collectors long after its use and Colt called it the " Old Style Holster Pistol." The handy title "Dragoon" comes from its use by the United States Mounted Rifles- often called Dragoons and it was designed as a "holster pistol" to be carried in pairs on holsters mounted to the front of a saddle. Cylinders are roll engraved with the Ormesby impression of the Hays Big Fight and are further marked "Model USMR" (United States Mounted Rifles.)

The third variation features a single plane, flat mainspring, rectangular cylinder lugs and a tenuous looking vertical front loading lever latch. Some examples of both the second and Third Models have horizontal latches but the vertical seems most common and is used on the replicas. It is also distinguished by the rounded rear aspect of the trigger guard.

The Walker and earlier Dragoon variations had a hooked trigger guard like the Ruger Super Blackhawk. This prompted Elmer Keith to lobby for the name "Ruger Dragoon" when the modern revolver came out
dragoons.jpg

As can be seen, the Dragoon is not overly large by modern sporting revolver standards. It does outweigh the SBH considerably.

During the years of production, about 22,000 were made domestically, 700 in the Colt London Armoury, an unknown number may have been made in Belgium under Colt Contract and a few were probably produced in the Tula Arsenal in Russia. They saw some use across the British Empire, in the Crimean War, the Sepoy Rebellion and were presented to heads of state in Europe, Asia and India.

In the United States, Military orders totaled about 9,300 with the bulk of the 22,000 revolvers being sold to civilians. The Dragoon is associated with Juaquin Murietta, a Californio who, after sufficient provocation is said to have launched a guerilla campaign against the occupying United State Army. Hariette Tubman, the Underground Railroad conductor also is said to have carried a very large Colt revolver with the Dragoon being the likely candidate. The revolver saw wide use in the western expansion and among early explorers and Westerners. Colt historic literature documents its successful use in killing bison from horseback. This gives it the same type of historical appeal that applies to the contemporary Colt Navy.
(Search this site for Gatofeo's discussion of "The Colt Revolver on the Plains.")

This 2004 Uberti replica has a 4.5lb trigger pull and the same smooth action found on the current Uberti production. Like other current ubertis, the chamber mouths and forcing cone measure a consistent .450" The initial cylinder-full we fired was loaded with .454 ball and 45 grains of FFFG and was the mildes combination shot so far. This load does fill the chambers completely. With this load, the loading lever stayed in place but the loads using bullets and pyrodex p cause the lever to drop down-either from initial loosening or the greater impulse of those loads. I have moderated this tendency by pinching the frame next to the loading lever screw and angling the loading lever latch stud.

The first group was fired one-handed from 60 feet, and struck about 8" above point of aim.
draggon60ft.jpg


The Lee Bullets are dropping from the mould somewhat larger than the nominal .451 diameter, so I put them through a .452 sizer die and then lubricated with bore butter. The 50 foot bench group was about 3" which seems to be normal for this bullet from my Uberti .44s. This is fairly good bullet performance but the bench group is still about the size you would expect from a good off-hand group at the same distance using ball.

The supplied Pedersoli replica flask throws a consistent 36 grain charge at its largest setting. This is just about ideal for the bullet loads which like the above mentioned ball load fills up the chambers.

The dragoon is much more muzzle-heavy than other colt type revolvers-a characteristic that is valued by modern target shooters- and it hangs on target rock-steady. The trigger pull feels lighter than the measured 4lb 8oz and good 25 yard groups are to be expected
dragoon25duelist.jpg


The sights are fairly large in keeping with the rest of the revolver and reasonably easy to see. Point of impact,like most caplock revolvers is several inches high at ordinary distances. Recoil, even with the top pyrodex loads, is extremely mild.

Some of us have discouraged new or occasional shooters from straying from the Colt Army, Navy or the Remington when buying a first revolver. Circumstances may have changed as spare parts are now much more obtainable from such sources as VTI gunparts and Cimarron Arms.
I find this a very satisfying revolver both from the historical perspective, the appearance and the handling charateristics that derive from the size and balance
 
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Nice pictures as always MEC.We need to get you and Gatofeo to collaborate on the definitive black powder revolver book.Interesting to read that the loading lever still unlatches on this model.I had thought that the problem was solved on the Dragoon.
 
Some of the revolvers with the horizontal latch do that too. There seems to be a great deal of stress at that point. Even though recoil is mild, a fairly stiffly springed latch bounces enough to let things loose. On this one, I put mor of an angle on the catch and the seat and pinched the frame to tighten up the loading lever. I don't necessarily recommend that but it works for me. Even then, with a lot of initial pressure required to move the lever, it can still detach and come down a short distance. Doesn't fall and lock up the cylinder though.

I refer to Gatofeo's posts often. In those cases where our mutterances are not in agreement, I would recommend giving more weight to what the Gat says. He's been experimenting around with these things longer than I have.
 
Dragoons are impressive pieces.

<shameless plug>

I wrote an article about the Dragoon which was published in the November/December 1999 issue of The Backwoodsman. The text of it is online here.

</shameless plug>
 
Outstanding article. Actually I had read it shortly before shooting this Uberti Dragoon and it was floating around in my mind while shooting and when I wrote the above post.

I looked in RL Wilson's book and found a few pictures of horizontal loading latches with one even on a first or second model Dragoon (oval cylinder lugs.)

Also, I consider a circa six-inch group at 25 yards to be very good.
 
I decided to check out the dragoon with Pyrodex RS - the substitute intended for rifle and shotgun loading. Results were as follows:
140 Grain .454 Ball 45 gr/volume Pyrodex RS Average 6 rounds 869 extreme spread 85 fps
I was sitting on the ground resting over my knees and shooting at a target at fifty yards. Five shots went into a group 4" tall by 2" wide with the sixth expanding the vertical dispursion to 6".

200 Grain Lee Conical 35 Grains/volume Pyrodex RS 846 fps/5 rounds 25fps extreme spread. I don't know how these grouped as they were entirely off the target.

I noted that the ball load, like the load of Goex fffg, did not detach the loading lever from its seat. The bullet load did and equivalent loads of pyrodex P also made it jump loose. Pinching the frame helped as the leaver would drop down about an inch and remain in that position through the entire cylinder load.

With a revolver of this capacity, it appears that Pyrodex Rs is a better proxy for goex fffg than the customary Pyrodex P.
 
Mec,very nice post as usual. I don't post in this fourm much but I always check your's and Gat's threads. The first revolver and derringer that I owned were BP, back in my early teens. ( my mom bought them for me :D ) I don't shoot much BP anymore but I'll get back to it someday. I screwed up and let a really good rifle deal go by that Shanghai McCoy tried to sell me :( Aww well...he tried to help me back to the straight and narrow :D
 
I have two C&B revolvers on my wish list. One is the Dragoon and the other is the 1851 Navy.

mec,

I would be interested in seeing the results of using Triple 7 in these types of revolvers. Have you ever considered trying it?
 
so laban: Derringers- I read the review of a little brass frame one on the Dixie site. Guy deems it a great present for the grandchild, "give to him when he's too young. It'll piss off the parents."

stevelyn: I use 777 in single shot pistols and it works very well. I've tried it in several revolvers and used volume for volume with fffg, it produces very high velocities and sometimes, high extreme spreads. Ive had some 1200 fps + loadings in a 36 navy replica and over 200 fps extreme spread over 5 shots. This was with the 22 grain flask spout. Ive found it to work very well with the load decreased. Like a 24 grain Measure produced some very consistent results from an Army .44 with velocities at the same level we were getting with the 30 grain equivalent of pyrodex.

I use the 20 grain setting for my 50 cal Lyman pistol and get the same velociaties as with 30 grains of pyrodex p. With a .45 cal LePage, the 15 grain setting duplicates the 20 grain dose of pyrodex.
 
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"I refer to Gatofeo's posts often. In those cases where our mutterances are not in agreement, I would recommend giving more weight to what the Gat says. He's been experimenting around with these things longer than I have."
--- mec

Thanks, mec. Quite a gentlemanly thing to say. I'm flattered.
Actually, I read mec's posts with great scrutiny too and find that we more often agree than disagree.
On the points we do disagree, they're only minor points of opinion. I learn a great deal from your posts.
For example, you feel that the Dragoon is suitable for a beginner's gun. I feel that an 1851 or 1861 Navy or Remington Army are about ideal. Just differences of opinion.
Your post on the 3rd Dragoon has me itching for one. I've wanted one for some time and this may push me over the edge toward one. Money's tight right now but I'll consider it later.
I also want a high quality 1849 Colt in .31 caliber. The one I have was purchased in the 1970s and is very rough. The bore is full of tool marks. Won't shoot for a darn. Brass-framed too, which I dislike. Nice decorator, though.

I recently tried 777 FFFG in my Remington 1858 .44-caliber. I made a stoopid mistake, thinking that it was to be used volume-for-volume with black powder. I dumped 40 grains of it into my Remington and seated a .454 inch ball.
Yikes!
Powerful load!
Later, I read the label on 777 FFFG and it said a maximum of 35 grains for .44 cap and ball revolvers. The Remington took it, no problem, but I'd never drop that much into my Colt 1860.
I should have known better. Been firing cap and ball sixguns since about 1970 and I got too comfortable with it. That 777 FFFG is powerful stuff; I'd use it carefully.
 
Pretty much the same thing here with that 777. I started using it volume for volume and knew something was wrong when a couple of .36 balls crossed the chronograph screens at over 1200. The stuff works great with reduced charges- particularly in single shot pistols.

24 grains of it in a Remington got the same velocity range as 30 pyrodex and the extreme spreads were low. Some of my best single shot targets have been shot with 777.

I really don't disagree that the Army, Navy, and Remington Replicas make the most sense for new or casual shooters. If somebody was in love with the idea of a Walker or Dragoon, and this can happen if you watch "Josey Wales " or "Lonesome Dove" too often, those revolvers are a better choice than they were a few years ago. Now, the quality is higher and you can get spare parts to keep them running.


Went to the Market Hall Gun Show in Dallas this Saturday and saw a bunch of original pocket models in pretty good condition. - good many old army and navy colts too.
31loads.jpg

I like my Wells-Fargo and Bates' Uberti Pocket model but can't shoot them nearly as well as the bigger ones. I'm good to 40 or 50 feet. The velocities I recorded with these put the various powders in reverse order as to performance than I usually find. Generally, h777 is on the high end followed by pyrodex p and then goex fffg.
I can generally chronograph a modern handgun load and be able to say I know about how fast the next batch is going to go. With the black powder ones though, I'm never sure what I'm going to get from one chronographing session to the next.
 
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Shot the Dragoon again with Pyrodex RS. At this volume, it acts more like FFFG than Pyrodex P does. The recoil is mild enough that the loading lever doens't come loose.
dragoonpyrors.jpg


My 25 yard shooting was off. I threw some fliers which I've decided to blame on the wind and cold but managed this at 60 feet. It looks like the Pyrodex RS should be plenty accurate.
 
mec - How do you load these pistols that do not have a loading lever? I know a little about C&B guns, but the more I learn the more I realize I don't know. :) Thanks.

Jim
 
Different ways that are kind of the same. The older patersons had a multi-tool that served as a ball lever(the replicas are made of pot metal and break)

the early baby Dragoons and Pocket models had a cup on the end of the cylindere arbor. You took the barrel and cylinder off, charged the chambers, started a ball and used the cylinder arbor to press it on in. I usually use a ball starter and finish up with the cylinder arbor. Modern advise is to reassemble the revolver before applying caps- though in the old days it was common to carry extra loaded and capped cylinders for a fast reload.

There was a .36 Pocket Navy or police model called the "trapper" that came with a ramrod instead of the lever arrangement.
pattersonsmlload.jpg


The Texas Ranger, Jack Hays, was very happy when the Patersons with loading levers arrived in 1842. It was no longer necessary to park the horse and get off to load the revolvers.
 
Thanks, mec - appreciate the response. Extra cylinders, pre-loaded - the original speed loader, huh?

I really like the looks of that '49 Pocket Revolver. May have to be my next pruchase. :) Gonna have to start saving up again.

By the way, you mentioned Jack Hays. Have you been to Enchanted Rock? One of my favorite parks.


Jim
 
That pocket model is a decade or more old Uberti. It has a silver plated grip/trigger guard and the fire blue finish they call carbon. That blue is one option from Cimarron but I don't think they plate the grip frame anymore.

Went to enchanted rock with my x wife and may go back again. Climbed it and couldnt tell where John Coffee could have wedged himself in to hide. Place was massively crouded with drunk rock climbers and even a school bus full of chanting cultists.
 
Very interesting info on the patterson.... I had never given any thought to the "how" of reloading those without levers, having never owned one.

I gather from what little I've read of history that when expecting to be in a fight one carried as many "guns" as possible given the difficultly of reloading BP pistols.
 
Dragoon/h777/Swiss fffg/ Lee Cast Bullet

A couple of things: I've had much better luck with H777 when I am careful not to compress it very much.
I've gotten a supply of Swiss fffg which turns out to be quite a revelation. It is much hotter than Goex and it generally matches or exceeds Pyrodex P or H777 when the latter is loaded for optimum consistency.

The pictured loads were printing 2-2.5" groups from a fairly steady rest at 60 feet. This is fairly typical of the Lee cast bullets and not quite up to round ball accuracy. The bullets shoot considerably higher than most round ball loads. On this occasion, I had planned to load 45 grains of swiss and the same volume of h777 in the dragoon and make a direct comparison. I found that the true black powder would not compress far enough to get the bullet below the chamber mouth so the loads are 40 grains Swiss fffg and .45 gr/volume equivalent of H777. The higher charge of h777 gained 58 feet per second over the swiss making it seem likely that the two powders would perform about alike at the same volume.

With these charges the Dragoon exceeds the energy levels of the 45 colt cartridge and since the Swiss loads are true black powder it gives rise to the possibility that this level of performance might have actually been available to shooters in the 19th century- given the optimum powder performance and granulation.
 
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Great original post. Those old Colts were capable of a lot more than some realize.

On a previous thread, I mentioned that a friend found a cylinder from a 2nd model dragoon on his ranch. The cylinder was definately larger than what is found on the later models and the cylinder latch (proper term?) notches were rectangular without the leading "dish" to guide the bolt in place as the cylinder rotated.

From what I have been able to observe from pictures of originals, the notches on the Walkers and first models were oval and then the 3rd model had the familiar rectangle with the "dish".

This area was Comanche country for a long time, near an old settlement called Buffalo Gap and even closer to an old stage coach station that was used prior to the Civil War. It doesnt take a great deal of imagination to envision how that cylinder got there. (There's a Comanche grave less than a quarter mile away, too).
 
The dragoons flew through the early variations pretty fast. The third model was pretty much fixed by 1850 or 51. It seems that all of them were very popular in Texas
 
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