Understanding Heller within the context of constitutional interpretation theory.

Status
Not open for further replies.

cwmcgu2

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
322
Location
Kentucky
For many of us it is frustrating to understand how the 2nd Amendment could not apply to the civilian ownership of firearms. However, I have spent this semester in a graduate level class studying the differing theories of constitutional interpretation and the revelation of my scholastic endevors is that the Constitution has wide variations of meaning dependant upon the theory of interpretation utilized by the individual court justice. I thought I would go over some of the most predominant theories and how each applies to the Heller ruling.

Originalism:
- Originalism is the theory of interpretation that most members of this board would lean towards. It is based upon the use of historical scholarship to understand the intended meaning of the framers in order to decide a constitutional question. In terms of this theory it is easy to see that the framers intended for all civilians to be armed with firearms in order to protect their state and nation from external foes and internal tyranny. The "militia" clause being added to stress the ability of the civilian populace to quickly form organized military units. As such the guaranteed "arms" are weapons of military capability and their suitability to sporting uses is of no consequence.
- It should also be noted that under this originalism interpretation the 2nd Amendment guarantee is only a prohibition of federal restriction as intended by the framers. The application of other amendments on a state level has been facilitated by the manipulation of the 14th Amendment, passed after the Civil War. It can be argued that as the framers imagined that a citizens "arms" would be guaranteed on a state level through state constitutions, the 2nd Amendment should similarly be incorporated through the 14th Amendment due to the states rejections of the right.

Textualism
-Textualism (or contextual) is more concerned with approaching questions of constitutional interpretation through linguistic analysis. The question at hand then is "what does the text say?" The clause in question contains is a frame with provides clear core meanings and fuzzy "fringe" meanings. In the case of Heller the importance of the relation between the two clauses of the 2nd Amendment will be the important question at hand. The interpretation of the word "militia" is of the most importance. Then whether "the right to bear arms" is dependant and neccessary on the "well organized militia." In practical application the textualism theory is almost never used on its own. In most cases it is blended with an originalist theory.

Living Constitution
-The living constitution (or developmental) theory has been at the heart of all the controversial judicial activism decisions over the last century. The question for this theory is "what do the words of the constitution mean in our time?" Under this theory past interpretations or intended meanings are invalid as they no longer reflect the prevailing standards and values of our modern society. At the heart of this theory is the concept of "human justice" which can best be described as a bleeding heart perspective which devalues the importance of individual choices by emphasising the effect of socio-economic causation. In the case of Heller this theory is the greatest enemy for 2nd Amendment rights. It will be argued that at its adoption the civilian militias of the states were fundamental to the defense of our nation, but the existence of the National Guard and varios national Armed Forces has removed the quintecential "minute man" from the equation. It will also be argued that our society has advanced past the need for "vigilanteism" and that gun control is necessary for the furtherance of our "peaceful society." Interestingly enough this interpretation in every other usage has been utilized in every prior occassion to further the rights of the individual. An unbiased usage of this theory removed from its foundational liberal ideology would result in the expansion of our 2nd Amendment rights with regards to the Heller decision.

*****
It is important to note that regardless of your idealism with regards to constitutional interpretation, these methods/theories of interpretation are merely vehicles for the realization of justices individual political ideology. Originalist and some textualist justices are such because they realize that these theories will yield decisions in line with their conservative political ideology. Developmental and some textualist justices are such because they realize that these theories will yield decisions in line with their liberal ideologies. Even those of you on this board who claim to hold one of these theories of interpretation are only doing so (unconciously) because it will yield the decisions you desire. The objective justice striving for truth and justice within the context of the constitution is an endangered species.
 
Last edited:
When one applies logic and understands that the BOR is a check against government and that the 2nd is IN the BOR, it becomes very clear what the meaning is. At that point, graduate level theories are meaningless and useless IMO.

Some folks, academics in particular, like to make simple things complicated.
 
Please Proofread

CWNCGU2,

Please proofread your post. The third sentence under "Textulism" contains a glaring error ( the "a" is a mistake ) and you used the word "with" when you meant "which".

I deliberately space around paranthesis signs for better legibility.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Addendum/comment: Re-opened by requests.

Anytime anybody disagrees with why I close a thread, feel free to PM me. I might not change my mind, but I am quite willing to listen to what folks think. My ego's not wrapped up in this moderating...

:), Art
 
OK. The reason I asked for a re-open is this: let's assume for a sec that the court (or more likely the Liberals on the bench) start looking at the Heller/Parker case from a "living constitution" point of view. Hell, we can bet that way in a few cases.

Can we arrange for an Amicus brief by *somebody* that specifically addresses that argument?

The "living constitution" people want to look at a ruling's real-world, practical effects. Which isn't always a bad thing in moderation. Can we get an Amicus together that looks at the effects of strict gun control?

1. What are the murder rates like in states with shall-issue CCW (or Vermont/Alaska) versus strict gun control states?

2. What about city by city? Do the large cities with shall-issue CCW fare better than the strict-gun-control towns like LA, DC, Chicago, NYC?

3. What's happened to the murder rate in Detroit post-shall-issue? Detroit is a pretty good racial/economic/cultural model for DC.

4. Does strict gun control come with it's own baggage? Classic commentators such as Machiavelli argued that a disarmed population was scorned by those in authority. Is police abuse more common in strict gun control areas? I think we might find that it is. Should we look? At a minimum, data on arrests of police city by city should be available.

5. What about corruption, racism and gender bias in may-issue jurisdictions? I've got a ton of stuff on that. Since the ruling will have a national effect, we don't need to focus purely on the law's effect in DC.

I recently had a friendly argument with somebody fairly high placed in the Arizona ACLU. I claimed that ACLU officers have at times directly fought against the 2nd, while he claimed the ACLU had always been neutral. I won that argument:

http://www.americanminutemen.org/reinhardt.htm

Through him I *may* be able to get higher up the ACLU AZ food chain, enough to possibly get an amicus done via the AZ state ACLU chapter covering these points.

Does anybody have good, "pre-packaged" data on the above five points? #5 I'm already a specialist in...
 
Jim, that is a very good point you make there. That argument is a killer if the living constitution approach is argued. The attorney's for D.C. must be able to prove that the ban has improved the peace and safety of their city in order to argue that modern society has "evolved" past civilian ownership of firearms, something they cannot do.

Thanks for participating, I asked for this thread to be reopened because I wanted to spark a dialogue that took into consideration more than the originalist interpretation that so many of us here subscribe to.
 
Apparently we both asked for a re-open.

An addendum...

Across the period between 1870ish and 1900 the Supremes radically limited the 14th Amendment, which as a practical matter allowed state "justice" systems to get completely out of control.

In 1907 the Supremes got their noses thoroughly rubbed in how bad it had become. Short form: a trial of a black in Tennessee was an obvious travesty, and the Supremes agreed to hear his case. As is normal, a stay of execution was issued along with the decision to hear it.

The TN locals killed the accused the moment they heard about the Supremes hearing it and doing a stay.

The Supremes then put the Sheriff in question on trial for contempt of court, in the only criminal trial ever heard directly by the Supremes before or since. See also:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/shipp.html

I believe this case had a lot to do with the later reforms of due process, which was in a fairly advanced state by the 1930s but really started not long after the Shipp case.

I want to re-create the Shipp hearing, in a way. I want to somehow show the Supremes that violations of the 2nd by the states have had negative effects.

CLASSIC case history: the Oakland "Riders" scandal. A brand new cop freaked out at the obvious abuses going on and blew the whistle. Other cops were jailed. New cop left Oakland PD of course, went back home to Solano County if I recall right...over 150 miles away. He then applies for CCW there and gets *denied*.

His sole remaining choice was to join another police department, in order to stay in California and be able to defend himself. He did so, in Pleasanton last I heard.

This is the kind of thing I want to cram down the throats of the Supremes. I want a buttload of these stories, documented to a "T". How about members of AeroSmith buying NYC carry permits with backstage passes and limo rides for the NYPD bureaucrat in charge of permits? How about the racial discrimination stats I have for California? I want to *bury* 'em in the messes caused by violations of the RKBA by states, going all the way back to Cruikshank in 1875.
 
Jim,

Have you contacted the folks at VCDL or opencarry.org about this?

I would be glad to put out such a request to as many state RKBA orgs I can find. All I/we need to do is put together a form letter that makes such a request.

What do you think about both of my ideas?

As to the point of the thread - I thought about asking one of the Heller attys just such a question at the SAF/CCRKBA conference here, but did not. I guess I figured they were smart enough to do so on their own - but maybe a little help couldn't hurt!
 
BB62: -=IF=- I can get it via the AZ chapter of the ACLU, that would be much more potent than any RKBA org.

I think I have the contacts to pull it off, if it's possible at all. Remember, I've been working on election integrity a lot via the Pima County -=Democratic=- party, even though I'm Libertarian and they all know about it and we joke about it a lot.

Connections...I started to write down "who I know" but, it could be used against us all. Not cool. Trust me: I know people on the "lefty side" more than probably anybody here.
 
The application of other amendments on a state level has been facilitated by the manipulation of the 14th Amendment, passed after the Civil War. It can be argued that as the framers imagined that a citizens "arms" would be guaranteed on a state level through state constitutions, the 2nd Amendment should similarly be incorporated through the 14th Amendment due to the states rejections of the right.
I would not say that the 14th "passed" after the Civil War, I would say that it "took effect”. And I do not believe that a personal RKBA is something that can possibly come under the jurisdiction of a limited federal government. Besides, the US cannot even handle the interstate commerce power without using it to create weapon bans and gun free zones and such, so don’t we have every reason to believe that the federal government should not be allowed anywhere near the RKBA, just as our Framers believed? And yet what some people seem to want more than anything is to use the 14th “Amendment” to empower the US with jurisdiction over a personal RKBA ... as if the States are despotic and the federal government is not!

I don't understand the idea that the States have rejected the RKBA and so we need the federal government to assume jurisdiction. I can sort of see how someone from California or New York might question if they would be better off if the federal government stepped in ... but as a Virginian, from my point of view, Virginia has not rejected the RKBA, and the last thing we would want would be to involve the federal government in our RKBA. If we have a question in Virginia about what our RKBA should be, why would we want to hold a Congress with Feinstein and Schumer, or have the SCOTUS rule upon our intrastate affair? It seems to me that if we destroy the States from the perspective of the RKBA, trying to make the RKBA the same in every State, then Californians and New Yorkers and their ilk will no longer by contained by their State lines, and they will screw up the whole US the way they screw up their own States.


if the living constitution approach is argued ... The attorney's for D.C. must be able to prove that the ban has improved the peace and safety of their city
I’m not quite ready to accept that theory. It would seem to mean that the federal government has a power to strike down any law and the burden is upon the other governments to prove that their laws actually work. Where does the US Constitution say that the federal government shall have power to strike down any law which cannot be proven effective? I’m kind of thinking that if State or local law is intended to improve the peace and safety, then there is a power to pass such laws, and there is no burden to prove them effective to the federal government.
 
What was overlooked, or at least not stated, in the OP is that the Originalist philosophy is the only one that implements the rule of law. i.e. The original meaning as understood by the Framers and those who ratified it is the actual law that we all agreed, at the time, to live under.

Any other interpretation, especially the Living Constitution philosophy, substitutes the "rule of unelected judges" for the rule of law. When a group of judges radically re-interpret the Constitution to mean something entirely different than what it was originally understood to mean, they are creating and implementing new law that no one agreed to but themselves.

I for one do not mind being governed, but I have no wish to be "ruled".

The Framers provided for a way to alter the Constitution when there was broad agreement that change was needed - the amendment process. This process provides for strong input of the "will of the people" through their elected representatives. The "consent of the governed" as it were.

This is the only legitimate way to change the Constitution.

After all, isn't there a phrase in there somewhere that says that "all power derives from the people"?

This is a lot different than saying that "all power is vested in 5 judges".
 
Hugh, I understand you hate the 14th. Right, we've heard it, let's move on.

I also understand you don't believe in a "living constitution". Cool, neither do I. Newsflash: at LEAST three and likely four or even -=five=- members of the Supremes DO. Ignoring that won't make it go away, any more than you can make the 14th go away.

So commensurate with that reality, can an argument be made that the Liberal wing of the Supremes can digest? YES. Will they be more likely to read it if it ships in on ACLU letterhead? You bet.

---

Sigh. One more thing: the -=entire=- US civil rights movement is founded on the 14th. If you rail against the 14th, you look like a stone-cold racist and you're damn well not helping the cause.
 
cwmcgu2 said:
For many of us it is frustrating to understand how the 2nd Amendment could not apply to the civilian ownership of firearms.

Very good post. I find textualism and originalism difficult to distinguish.

How does originalism handle the criticism that we know what some of the framers thought - but not all, and we knew what darn few of the people thought who actually ratified it?

For example, on THR, I see the same very small group of folks quoted repeatedly for their understanding of the Second Amendment. I don't know how many people actually ratified the Bill of Right - I would guess that it was somewhere over 100. Does anyone know the number? It seems unlikely that we have the opinions of more than a very small minority of the ratifiers. How does originalism deal with this objection?

I am not arguing for/against originalism, just trying to understand it as a theory of interpretation.

Mike
 
How about members of AeroSmith buying NYC carry permits with backstage passes and limo rides for the NYPD bureaucrat in charge of permits?
To be fair, there will always be a certain amount of cronyism in any government administered program. Its just the way government and politics works.

I doubt anyone would argue that in NYC today these kind of abuses are going on. They have eliminated the abuses of the system by reducing the number of permits issued. Is that what we really want?

Its a lot like the argument over cops carrying off duty. Some here feel the answer to Joe Citizen being allowed to carry is to ban off duty cop carry. While the current situation is blatantly unfair to Joe Citizen, it does at least benefit some people.
 
Sigh. One more thing: the -=entire=- US civil rights movement is founded on the 14th. If you rail against the 14th, you look like a stone-cold racist and you're damn well not helping the cause.

Of course I'm not helping your yankee cause to subvert our constituted frame of government.

Instead of trying to play the race card, attempting to claim some in-your-mind moral high ground, why not answer my question about what part of the US Constitution delegates to the US a power to strike down any law that cannot proven to be effective? Did y'all just make this up based upon some erroneous libertarian belief, or is there really something to it? Why do y'all keep saying that DC has to prove that gun laws work? I'm hollering BS, and you're hollering "racist". Yawn.
 
Of course I'm not helping your yankee cause to subvert our constituted frame of government.

Instead of trying to play the race card, ...

If we allow the RKBA to be associated with a rejection of Ciivl Rights, we will certainly lose the battle in the court of public opinion.

Mike
 
hugh, it is not whether a particular statute is effective or not, but rather whether it violates the rights of a state's citizens. If the law does violate a citizen's rights, then it is the constitutional role of the federal government to ensure a republican government in that state and protect the rights of the citizens in that state.
 
Hugh, we've gone around and around on this for years now.

I'm not saying you're a racist. I'm saying your arguments make you look like one, or at a minimum could be used to portray you as one.

As an example of what the South did post-Civil-War:

1. That it shall not be lawful for any freedman, mulatto, or free person of color in this State, to own fire-arms, or carry about his person a pistol or other deadly weapon.

2. That after the 20th day of January, 1866, any person thus offending may be arrested upon the warrant of any acting justice of the peace, and upon conviction fined any sum not exceeding $100 or imprisoned in the county jail, or put to labor on the public works of any county, incorporated town, city, or village, for any term not exceeding three months.

3. That if any gun, pistol or other deadly weapon be found in the possession of any freedman, mulatto or free person of color, the same may by any justice of the peace, sheriff, or constable be taken from such freedman, mulatto, or free person of color; and if such person is proved to be the owner thereof, the same shall, upon an order of any justice of the peace, be sold, and the proceeds thereof paid over to such freedman, mulatto, or person of color owning the same. [Ed. note: the off-duty fashion choices of “justices of the peace, sheriffs, or constables” at that time tended toward an ensemble of basic white bedsheets with eyeholes...especially at night.]

4. That it shall not be lawful for any person to sell, give, or lend fire-arms or ammunition of any description whatever, to any freedman, free negro or mulatto; and any person so violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined in the sum of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars, at the discretion of the jury trying the case.

Alabama statute of 1865, from “The Second Amendment: Towards An African-Americanist Reconsideration”, footnote 178 — two more state-level examples precede that one.

The whole idea of the 14th was to prevent such violations of rights - including the right to arms.

I have seen and lived under equally vicious violations of rights as recently as a couple of years ago. In Contra Costa County (California) I came across documents in which my sheriff agreed with the police chiefs in my county to exclude all of the high-minority-population areas from CCW access. It wasn't subtle - it was called the "Contra Costa Police Chief's Association Model CCW Protocol".

Yes, I believe the FBI should have taken action against that violation of rights. Maybe that puts me in the minority around here, but *somebody* from outside the local power structure has to take control over racism, corruption and the like.

And they DO - unless the issue involves guns.

That's what the Parker/Heller case might solve - or at least take a step down that path.
 
I wonder if DC was picked by one side or the other because it's not in a state. It is sort of strange federal entity - maybe that eliminates any states' rights arguments?

When I grew up in Rockville, MD (a long time ago - so long ago that I tool a bolt action 22 stock into shop class and nobody even notice :) ), DC was administered by Congress.

Mike
 
The "Living Constitution" interpretation theory is a virtual art form, creating elegant logic why the Constitution doesn't mean what it says or that it someohow means something that just isn't there...the implied provision theory.

What it all becomes is a way for the Court to devise the desired outcome in the absence of Congress and the States keeping the constitution up to date, applicable to the times, and explicit where necessary. That can also be a way of keeping the States out of the process. The net effect is that Congress has abdicated the power of legislating to the Supreme Court, yielding "government by judiciary".

I wouldn't support the idea of any such amicus brief, because it dignifies the abuse of the Constitution. All I would do is provide reasoning why a living constitution view was just wrong, and why anyone espousing such a view should be thown off the Court. We allowed the legal profession to build a facade of dignity around this nonsense. Rather than being forced to play their game, I would simply mock what they are doing and suggesting that they violate their oath of office.

If you believe one needs to play the game, then call it what it is...gaming without buying into the dysfunction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top