Unsafe Advice from nearly every video i've seen? Your thoughts...

[InfoLoader]

I cant be the only one to have a sane mind and just not speak out on the issue at hand. I watch alot of how to videos and also alot a gun videos on new guns as well. There are some highly respected review people out their an they do this unsafe practice as well. THEY TAKE A BULLET AND USE IT AS TOOL TO PUSH OUT TAKE DOWN PINS AND OTHER THINGS.I dont want people responding about thats how the military taught me because thats crap. Bullets weather crimped or not are not meant to be used as a tool. Makes you wander IF ANY MAJOR BULLET SEATING LENGTHS CHANGES were made because someone dislodged the bullet from the case and pushed it deeper into the case. How stupid advice gets pushed across the internet in videos and noone says anything about it and we all just carry on as if it's an ok practice. The analogy that im going to give is : thats like saying no you cant put a cigarette out in gasoline but jp5 jet fuel its ok to . In other words it ok if its a crimped bullet to go ahead and literally use it as a tool, but not if its uncrimped. My point is that neither types should ever be used as a tool. Its only going to open up a chance for accidents that should never of happened in the first place. If you never allow these bad practices into your daily life you leave no chance that a bullet becoming loose from abuse or being used as a tool which it was never meant to be used like that in the first place. Once again this is man teaching bad practices.I hope not just a few but everyone agrees and actually calls out this bad habit. It should be just as common as we see people show you that there gun is clear in a video before handling the gun. These people that teach these bad practices dont even think twice to warn you of any danger or say to you at the very least that: only use certain bullets to perform this potentially risky and dangerous practice by using a bulket cartridge as a tool.
My thoughts are that no bullet cartridges should ever be used weather crimped or not as a tool. Alot and i mean alot of people shoot .308 cartridges in a 7.62x51 chamber and haven't blown up yet. That doesnt mean its a good idea just because you haven't blown up just yet.

 

[macgrumpy]

Most bullets require 30 or more pounds of pressure before they'll move, I think your concern is misplaced.

 

[reddog81]

The loading of a bullet from the magazine into the chamber is very violent and fast. If the bullet moves under a little pressure you'll be in trouble either way.

I have a larger problem with the fact that people routinely ask for reloading advice online and that 25% of the responses are completely wrong.

 

[Shaq]

I've never used a bullet nose to push out a pin or for anything other than chambering & shooting it. Geez, what's wrong with a pin punch or other device? It is certainly possible to change the seating depth & cause a pressure spike. Maybe not likely if the case is firmly crimped, but why do it when there are smarter methods?
I think using a bullet for disassembly is part of an advertising gimmick - "No tools needed for disassembly...you can field strip this gun with only a bullet."

It reminds me of the takedown instructions that come with Ruger D.A. revolvers - "The hammer strut can be used to compress the trigger guard latch spring to remove the trigger guard assembly." Why scratch it up? That is a pretty strong spring; I've always used a screwdriver.

 

[jmr40]

I think you're over reacting.

 

[silicosys4]

I suggest before you get too worked up to take a 5.56 round or even a 7.62 round and put it tip down against a solid object and see how much force it takes to change OAL. I just did out of curiosity with a handloaded 5.56 round with a very mild/no crimp, and gave up after it started to hurt too badly to continue and I left a dent in the palm of my hand that I can still see 10 minutes later.
No change to OAL.
I don't think its nearly the issue you are portraying.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Understand your concern,but don't think its an issue as well. After all Cali legal guns had a bullet button.

 

[hso]

InfoLoader,

Your concern is appreciated.

IF someone decided to hammer a round to push a pin out I'd consider this the higher risk and important to warn other shooters to never do when they can't push the pin out by hand with a round. Pretending a round is a punch to hammer on would be reckless.

Since the practice of using a round to push a pen free has been used to field "service" this way by thousands upon thousand for many decades it is unlikely to be risky. I'm sure in theory that you could push a bullet back into the casing if you used a hammer on a stuck pin, but short of that I don't see much potential for it to occur.

 

[Tirod]

THEY TAKE A BULLET AND USE IT AS TOOL TO PUSH OUT TAKE DOWN PINS AND OTHER THINGS.I dont want people responding about thats how the military taught me because thats crap.

25 million prior service, mostly veterans have been taught this. As a Training Officer in a Basic Training unit for over 8 years in the Reserves, I've taught this. It was part of our lesson plan, and it was never questioned to use a cartridge as a tool in the field when doing the daily maintenance on your weapon.

Saying its "crap" basically is saying that generations of professionals in the combat arms, vetted by experts in the Ordnance Corps, and proven in decades of use in the field, and in combat, don't know what they are doing? That Eugene Stoner - who served in the Marine Corps - and his staff of ingenious engineers, along with the firearms engineers at Colt who have subsequently maintained the engineering package, don't know what they are doing? And that the ammo engineers who provide milspec ammo for the last 45 years are also clueless?

I don't think that word is appropriate, and the perspective demeans working professionals who have been doing it, teaching it, and passing it down to generations of soldiers who do it - all safely with no issue.

Since the push pins on the M16 were designed to slide out using something shaped in a similar manner, what exactly does a soldier use that is issued and meets the need? The Scripto ink pen is reinforced but I've never seen one as part of the cleaning kit - and cleaning kits are no longer part of the load, literally. They were deleted long before the M4 became normal issue.

Moot point, the Army doesn't have ammo lying about willy nilly all over the post, most troops only get to have any on a controlled range. It's only in a theater of war where they must have loaded magazines where it's a common practice. For all the potential "risk," not cleaning the weapon to remove dirt and debris is much more likely to cause a stoppage than the much smaller risk of setting back military ammo crimped tightly to protect against setback in an action that slams the cartridge into the chamber under full auto fire.

It's not a deer rifle action that gets casually chambered after a long walk to a stand. It's Insert Mag, Release bolt, and if it's not chambered, pound on the forward assist. That's why it's crimped and that's why nobody has bothered to issue a safety of use warning since the introduction of the weapon in the 1960's.

No big deal man. Combat arms doesn't lose sleep over it.

 

[Coyote3855]

I have specific tools for working on my firearms in the comfort of my gun room, but I would not hesitate to use a cartridge as a field expedient. There are many better examples of bad firearms advice on the internet than this one.

 

[DT Guy]

I cant be the only one to have a sane mind and just not speak out on the issue at hand. I watch alot of how to videos and also alot a gun videos on new guns as well. There are some highly respected review people out their an they do this unsafe practice as well. THEY TAKE A BULLET AND USE IT AS TOOL TO PUSH OUT TAKE DOWN PINS AND OTHER THINGS.I dont want people responding about thats how the military taught me because thats crap. Bullets weather crimped or not are not meant to be used as a tool. Makes you wander IF ANY MAJOR BULLET SEATING LENGTHS CHANGES were made because someone dislodged the bullet from the case and pushed it deeper into the case. How stupid advice gets pushed across the internet in videos and noone says anything about it and we all just carry on as if it's an ok practice. The analogy that im going to give is : thats like saying no you cant put a cigarette out in gasoline but jp5 jet fuel its ok to . In other words it ok if its a crimped bullet to go ahead and literally use it as a tool, but not if its uncrimped. My point is that neither types should ever be used as a tool. Its only going to open up a chance for accidents that should never of happened in the first place. If you never allow these bad practices into your daily life you leave no chance that a bullet becoming loose from abuse or being used as a tool which it was never meant to be used like that in the first place. Once again this is man teaching bad practices.I hope not just a few but everyone agrees and actually calls out this bad habit. It should be just as common as we see people show you that there gun is clear in a video before handling the gun. These people that teach these bad practices dont even think twice to warn you of any danger or say to you at the very least that: only use certain bullets to perform this potentially risky and dangerous practice by using a bulket cartridge as a tool.
My thoughts are that no bullet cartridges should ever be used weather crimped or not as a tool. Alot and i mean alot of people shoot .308 cartridges in a 7.62x51 chamber and haven't blown up yet. That doesnt mean its a good idea just because you haven't blown up just yet.

If it is indeed that risky, and so prevalent, point to evidence that it has caused safety issues. Empirical evidence from a large body of users (the military, as Tirod ably pointed out) contradicts your proposition; do you have any evidence to support it?

Larry

 

[Reloadron]

Unsafe Advice from nearly every video i've seen? Your thoughts...

Why is it unsafe? I have yet to hear of anyone managing to hurt themselves or someone else. I have seen 7.62 x 39 rounds used to remove the trigger group in an SKS. I just see you as over reacting to a practice which has been in use since metallic cartridges with pointy bullets. Especially in the case of FMJ bullets.

Ron

 

[BrocLuno]

My bullet, my personal safety, my "Bullet Button" as mandated by local state law on many builds. No blown-off hands, no big out-cry ...

Of course it might deform the projectile a bit, so it will not group that well, but what the hey ...

 

[bearcreek]

How stupid advice gets pushed across the internet in videos and noone says anything about it and we all just carry on as if it's an ok practice.

That practice has nothing to do with "getting pushed across the internet". It was SOP long before online forums and Youtube were even thought of. Far as I know, and I'll bet as far as you know too, there's no examples of it actually causing a problem.

 

[north east redneck]

Safety first, but I think the OP is over cautious. I've never seen any set back in .223/5.56 rounds I've used to push pins out.
I don't see why crimped jacketed rounds would be set back by hand pressure. Certainly wouldn't hit them with a hammer, but pushing out take down pins? No worries.

 

[larryh1108]

.I dont want people responding about thats how the military taught me because thats crap

I'll accept their (military) advice over yours, thankyouverymuch.

 

[acdodd]

Can you name 1 instance of this causing a problem?
Millions of trained military folks or you?
I'll side with the trained military.

 

[jmorris]

The analogy that im going to give is : thats like saying no you cant put a cigarette out in gasoline...

Not disagreeing with your premise but you can drop a match into a full cup of gasoline and put the match out when it hits the liquid. More likely to ignite if less than full.

This one still has me shake my head every time it comes up.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1048331_.html

 

[Mauser lover]

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding about what types of pins are pushed with a cartridge. Nobody (okay, perhaps someone has tried) takes a cartridge and beats out a tapered pin that holds your sights in place. "Nobody" uses a cartridge as a punch to hammer on. Come on, there is a relatively sensitive primer on the back of it, don't pound on it with a hammer!

However, with take down pins and things that were designed to be pushed out with cartridges (and here we have our substantiation, do things the way that they were designed to be done), there should be no problem. Even the pre-twentieth century Mauser designs used bullets as tools to remove the magazine floorplate.

Your caution is appreciated, and caution should always be used when dealing with anything that has the potential to ruin one's life (like firearms, cars, airplanes, flamethrowers, the internet, matches, scissors, and the like) but in my thinking and my experience this will not be a substantial problem.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Why is it unsafe? I have yet to hear of anyone managing to hurt themselves or someone else. I have seen 7.62 x 39 rounds used to remove the trigger group in an SKS. I just see you as over reacting to a practice which has been in use since metallic cartridges with pointy bullets. Especially in the case of FMJ bullets.

Ron

+1

This is SOP for field stripping an SKS in the military role. That little divot in the trigger assembly is just right for a 7.62 bullet tip. They go together like skrimps n' buttah beans.

 

[Acera]

I guess you would be horrified to hear that we took fired .50BMG cases to use as a mallet to break down linked belts. Some of the courses of fire required specific number of rounds in the belt, so we used what we had available to knock out a round to get to our correct lengths. Yeah, pounding on the tip of the bullet until it loosened up and we were able to pull it free from the links. Lot more pressure in that than pushing a small pin.

You are seriously over reacting due.


(BTW aren't the take down pins on Cetmes and H&K G3s designed to be used with a cartridge?)
.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, I'm going to close this to save any more dog-piling on the OP. He saw something he thought was a problem, but that isn't really a problem at all. He asked, and now has been better informed. It would be better if more of us were irrationally TOO safe, than the much more common inverse of that problem.