Unusual powder, can anyone ID?

[chevrofreak]

I just got 16lbs of this powder from American Reloading, it is their MP 325 and is said to be for 300BLK and 7.62x39, but it is unlike any other powder I have ever seen. It is an extremely small stick powder, around the size of a grain of MSG, and nowhere near as large as other small kernel powder like AR Comp or Benchmark/8208 XBR. They claim a burn rate of 63-65 on the chart, which puts it in the H110 to IMR 4227 range

 

[Blue68f100]

You already identified it as MP 325. There is no way of knowing what any powder is without running a mass spec on a sample .

 

[chevrofreak]

There is exactly zero info on any powder named "MP 325" anywhere but the American Reloading site. Someone has to make it, and I am hoping that figuring out who makes it will lead to possible load data other than the 2 loads they list.

 

[Mk-211]

I would bet that Vihtavuori makes it, check the burn rates on their website.

 

[chevrofreak]

I would bet that Vihtavuori makes it, check the burn rates on their website.

I have a few VihtaVuori pistol powders like N350, N320, 3n37 and the kernels are about the same length but the diameter is much smaller, on the order of the diameter of a piece of coarse hair. I am not aware of any other VV powders that fit this description, but I would be happy if they made it. I will go grab a couple of other powders and line them up for a photo.

 

[WrongHanded]

I'm not saying it is, but it looks a lot like 2400 to me.

 

[chevrofreak]

This should illustrate how tiny it is.

 

[EricBu]

I just got 16lbs of this powder from American Reloading, it is their MP 325 and is said to be for 300BLK and 7.62x39, but it is unlike any other powder I have ever seen. It is an extremely small stick powder, around the size of a grain of MSG, and nowhere near as large as other small kernel powder like AR Comp or Benchmark/8208 XBR. They claim a burn rate of 63-65 on the chart, which puts it in the H110 to IMR 4227 range View attachment 1106136View attachment 1106137

From memory, that looks a LOT like Lovex D063 , and according to American Reloading, the 16 grain charge for a 147 is right on the money for D063 Lovex blackout data.

 

[chevrofreak]

From memory, that looks a LOT like Lovex D063 , and according to American Reloading, the 16 grain charge for a 147 is right on the money for D063 Lovex blackout data.

I have D063-02 and it a a tiny flattened ball powder, not a stick powder.

 

[EricBu]

I have D063-02 and it a a tiny flattened ball powder, not a stick powder.

Memory must be off. Then, maybe my last batch I used was D063-01, SBR Socom? Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Now I'm scratching my head a bit. Now I feel like digging through cannisters. Most of these branded in house labeled jugs like this always seem to be either Lovex, St Mark's bulk products, or demil'd stuff. I can't shake the feeling that looks familiar from something I used for 300 BLK or 7.62x39 once upon a time.

Edit: Not SBR Socom, grabbed a can and looked and it's a mix of small stick like that powder above, but also small flattened ball in it as well.

 

[chevrofreak]

Just looking at picture online I. Am thinking it looks a lot like Alliant Reloder 7, and the data is close but not exact. Maybe a batch that was too fast to be labeled Reloder 7?

 

[EricBu]

Well by golly, I think it's Lovex D060, AKA Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle.

Lovex Reccomended charge for 300 BLK 147 grain bullet is 15.4 grains @ 1805 fps , and max charge is 17.7 at 1903 fps. A pic I just took of a jug on my shelf:

 

[P Flados]

I have been considering the MP powders for a while. Eventually I decided that their load data is probably one of the best clues. Based on the below, I am betting that it can be considered similar to 4227. The D063 is close below, but it is a ball powder.

To be a valid "similar powder" to the extent that we would like the comparison probably needs a decent match for three parameters:

• Powder type / shape / size
• Charge vs. velocity comparison
• Density

If you measure how many grains it takes to fill a ready to load 300 BO to the top, you can compare that to the estimated 21.16 gr I got from Quickload. Another comparison would be 21.57 in a 357 Mag case.

Quickload study for MP-325.                                  
                                 
Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.                                  
MP-325 is supposed to give 1800 fps with 16 grains.  Unfortunately they did not give barrel length.                                
I guessed at 18”                                
                                 
Cartridge          : .300 AAC Blackout (SAAMI)                                
Bullet             : .308, 150, Hornady FMJ-BT 3037, weight adjusted to 147                                
Barrel Length      : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm                                
                                 
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                                
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                                
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                                
Lovex S053                          92.0     15.6     1.01    1800    97.1    33338    3465   1.244                                
IMR 4227                            91.1     15.8     1.02    1800    93.4    34602    3475   1.223                                
Hodgdon H4227                       91.5     15.9     1.03    1800    94.0    33187    3534   1.232                                
Lovex D063                          81.0     16.0     1.04    1800    91.3    34979    3509   1.220                                
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  93.4     16.5     1.07    1800    95.4    31349    3600   1.253                                
IMR 4198                           101.1     17.2     1.11    1800    89.7    33078    3635   1.231                                
Vihtavuori N120 *C                  99.5     17.2     1.12    1800    95.2    30975    3636   1.255                                
Hodgdon H4198                       99.7     17.7     1.15    1800    84.6    36388    3509   1.210

 

[chevrofreak]

I have been considering the MP powders for a while. Eventually I decided that their load data is probably one of the best clues. Based on the below, I am betting that it can be considered similar to 4227. The D063 is close below, but it is a ball powder.

To be a valid "similar powder" to the extent that we would like the comparison probably needs a decent match for three parameters:

• Powder type / shape / size
• Charge vs. velocity comparison
• Density

If you measure how many grains it takes to fill a ready to load 300 BO to the top, you can compare that to the estimated 21.16 gr I got from Quickload. Another comparison would be 21.57 in a 357 Mag case.

Quickload study for MP-325.                                
                               
Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.                                
MP-325 is supposed to give 1800 fps with 16 grains.  Unfortunately they did not give barrel length.                              
I guessed at 18”                              
                               
Cartridge          : .300 AAC Blackout (SAAMI)                              
Bullet             : .308, 150, Hornady FMJ-BT 3037, weight adjusted to 147                              
Barrel Length      : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm                              
                               
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time                              
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms                              
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------                              
Lovex S053                          92.0     15.6     1.01    1800    97.1    33338    3465   1.244                              
IMR 4227                            91.1     15.8     1.02    1800    93.4    34602    3475   1.223                              
Hodgdon H4227                       91.5     15.9     1.03    1800    94.0    33187    3534   1.232                              
Lovex D063                          81.0     16.0     1.04    1800    91.3    34979    3509   1.220                              
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  93.4     16.5     1.07    1800    95.4    31349    3600   1.253                              
IMR 4198                           101.1     17.2     1.11    1800    89.7    33078    3635   1.231                              
Vihtavuori N120 *C                  99.5     17.2     1.12    1800    95.2    30975    3636   1.255                              
Hodgdon H4198                       99.7     17.7     1.15    1800    84.6    36388    3509   1.210

This converted LC case held 21.70gr filled this full. I did tap slightly to level it.

 

[P Flados]

Given your three for three match, sounds like "similar to 4227" is a pretty good fit. It sounds slightly more dense than 4227 which should keep your pressures below published 4227 pressures when you are approaching a full case.

 

[chevrofreak]

Given your three for three match, sounds like "similar to 4227" is a pretty good fit. It sounds slightly more dense than 4227 which should keep your pressures below published 4227 pressures when you are approaching a full case.

It definitely seems to be pretty close. I have been watching Johnny's Reloading Bench trying to see what he uses, and I saw he tried Norma 200, so I found a picture of it online. This looks suspiciously similar. Now to find load data to compare.

 

[Barbaroja]

I’m interested in those powders also but the lack of data gives me pause most of the time. I’d love to find an inexpensive rifle powder to feed my 243 winchester. I don’t mind wading into the uncharted waters a bit if I have a good idea of a starting point.
https://americanreloading.com/264-midwest-powders

Not sure I see anything appropriate for what I want but prehaps someone here knows better and can point me in the direction to start.
Lots of mixed information on these in forums around web

 

[Skgreen]

Unclear if all bulk powders have a direct canister equivalent.

 

[FROGO207]

Yeah, if it was a direct canister swap they would call it so. There are many special batches of propellant that are not exact to a tested canister one. My thought is it is pulldown of ammo and that was the amount used in those particular rounds so no testing in other things has been done. If one is not versed in figuring out a load without data you should avoid doing so.

 

[Howa 9700]

If memory serves, American Reloading sells pull down powders, brass and bullets sourced from nearby Lake City Ammo plant. That may help narrow it down to a few potential candidates.

 

[koz4guns]

You could try searching the description here.

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php

 

[jmorris]

Seems a bit like judging a book by its cover…

 

[P Flados]

I’m interested in those powders also but the lack of data gives me pause most of the time. I’d love to find an inexpensive rifle powder to feed my 243 winchester. I don’t mind wading into the uncharted waters a bit if I have a good idea of a starting point.
https://americanreloading.com/264-midwest-powders

Not sure I see anything appropriate for what I want but prehaps someone here knows better and can point me in the direction to start.
Lots of mixed information on these in forums around web

It would have helped if you provided a little more info. Do you prefer stick or ball. What bullet weights do you like?

I have never messed with 243, but it looks like Win 760 or slower is called for.

The following is a ball that would seem to be slower than 760. You could probably start with 760 load data and work you way up.

Quickload study for 30-06 #3  Ball

Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.
This powder is supposed to give 2760 fps with 60 grs
Unfortunately they did not give barrel length.  I guessed at 22”

Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 178, Hornady A-MAX 30712 weight adjusted to 175
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                   92.8     55.6     3.60    2760    99.4    57117   10301   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      97.0     56.4     3.65    2760    97.3    56506   10645   1.116  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        97.0     56.4     3.65    2760    97.3    56506   10645   1.116  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C              107.3     59.0     3.82    2760    95.5    56738   10787   1.107  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T           112.7     60.6     3.93    2760    99.7    53125   10696   1.136  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C              109.9     61.1     3.96    2760    95.0    53874   11240   1.130  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     112.9     61.4     3.98    2760    94.8    53986   11242   1.129  ! Near Maximum !

If your preference is stick, this one is actually pretty close to 760.

Quickload study for 30-06 #6  stick

Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.
This powder is supposed to give 2710 fps with 55 grs
Unfortunately they did not give barrel length.  I guessed at 22”

Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 178, Hornady A-MAX 30712 weight adjusted to 175
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon BL-C2                       87.4     52.4     3.40    2710   100.0    56158    9662   1.137  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        94.0     52.8     3.42    2710    99.0    56691    9936   1.133  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        96.8     54.0     3.50    2710    97.0    58893    9904   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T               94.4     54.5     3.53    2710    99.7    49899   10458   1.166
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                   91.0     54.6     3.54    2710    99.1    53746   10168   1.142  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      95.3     55.4     3.59    2710    96.7    53301   10479   1.146  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        95.3     55.4     3.59    2710    96.7    53301   10479   1.146  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                104.4     55.5     3.60    2710    99.9    55024    9609   1.129  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           106.2     55.9     3.62    2710    99.2    54372   10103   1.148  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                           102.6     56.1     3.63    2710    96.8    57419    9985   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T                   112.3     60.0     3.89    2710    92.5    56244   10373   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T                107.9     60.0     3.89    2710    92.5    56244   10373   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             105.7     61.2     3.97    2710    95.1    56669   10195   1.111  ! Near Maximum !