USPSA draw and mag change split times

[DLrocket89]

Hi everyone,

I've been out of the USPSA game for awhile (about a decade), getting back into it soon so I've been doing some practicing. One of my friends picked up a timer, so we went out in a field today, set up a couple of classifiers, and started practicing.

We spent quite a bit of time on this stage: https://uspsa.org/viewer/06-03.pdf

I used www.classifiercalc.com to pull scores and classifications. A decade ago I was a "C" in production. Today, between El Presidente and the link I sent above ("Can You Count") I was mostly scored as a C class, a few B's thrown in. On one of the last runs, I shot the best string I've ever shot and just barely squeaked into A-class. I had my friend videotape me in slow-mo and after watching it, I can't really find a place where I just plain wasted time. And I shot a 98 score (all "A" hits except one "C"). Per the timer, "BEEP" to first shot was 1.21 seconds, magazine change was 1.90-ish seconds, splits between shots were in the .18 to .25 second range.

So, the question - those split times in the last line there, what do I need to work on the most? The mag change being slowest by a large margin seems to be it, but what do other people run? What are the split times of a Grand Master? Wondering where to focus practice.

Thanks in advance!

Dustin

 

[ATLDave]

A 1.21 to a 10 foot target might be something you can improve on (if that was on String 1). A 1.90 mag change might offer some low hanging fruit, especially if that was the transition to the close target (if that was String 2).

But more broadly, you have to recognize that, after shooting and re-shooting the same classifier, you may well "hook up" on a run and get a result that is well above your current overall level of repeatable skill. That's good, because it lets you see what is within your current physical capabilities... but working to get that level of performance available on demand is at least as important as trying to increase your best-out-of-10-tries result (both have value).

 

[egd]

There's something I've been wondering about lately re. drawing and first shot. Let me preface by saying I've got a lot to learn since I just started this a couple of years ago and I'm old and slow and just not a good pistol shot. BUT, I still want to learn and improve.
Other than classifiers, I never see a stage where we just stand and draw and shoot. We always draw while moving to a shooting position. I still practice my draw during dryfire,as I see the importance of it overall, but I don't see the big benefit of trying so hard to worry over a few hundredths of a second on a standing draw. When I'm practicing at the range i try to set up things that make me draw while moving into shooting position and shoot at multiple targets to increase transition speed between targets. Does that sound like I'm thinking this correctly?

 

[ATLDave]

There's something I've been wondering about lately re. drawing and first shot. Let me preface by saying I've got a lot to learn since I just started this a couple of years ago and I'm old and slow and just not a good pistol shot. BUT, I still want to learn and improve.
Other than classifiers, I never see a stage where we just stand and draw and shoot. We always draw while moving to a shooting position. I still practice my draw during dryfire,as I see the importance of it overall, but I don't see the big benefit of trying so hard to worry over a few hundredths of a second on a standing draw. When I'm practicing at the range i try to set up things that make me draw while moving into shooting position and shoot at multiple targets to increase transition speed between targets. Does that sound like I'm thinking this correctly?

I'll take a whack at this:

1) It is common in USPSA for large field stages to have a start position that is within a shooting area and in a good shooting position. It is not the case that you will never "just stand and draw and shoot." Now, the match director/stage designer(s) of the match or matches you commonly shoot may have a pattern of not starting people in a shooting position on anything other than classifiers, but that is not universal.

2) Even on field courses where you don't start in a suitable shooting position, often a single step in one direction gets you to that spot. I shot a small, indoor match last night. The starting position on the 28 round field course was standing with heels on the front fault line. To shoot, you had to take a step backwards. But since our feet and hands can do thing independently, while we were taking a step backwards, we were drawing. A fast draw was still relevant.

3) A fast draw is just a few tenths faster than a slow draw. That's true. But developing a relatively quick draw has a bunch of collateral benefits, some of which I'll list below:
A) A fast draw combines a few elements, but some of those same elements get repeated every time you come into a new shooting position, especially after "breaking your grip." Grinding to knock a tenth off of a draw time might knock another tenth or half tenth on every new position, too.
B) Another component of a fast draw is responding aggressively to the buzzer with a quick reaction. Whether the reaction is to draw the gun, spring out of the chair, dash to the shooting area, etc., learning to respond with explosive speed to the start of the buzzer sound is useful.
C) It is my observation, though not necessarily something I can prove, that draw speed seems to set the internal "clock speed" of many shooters. A leisurely draw very frequently leads to a leisurely pace of doing everything else to a stage.
D) Conversely, on those stages where it matters (whether classifiers or otherwise), a quick draw helps to de-pressurize the first shot. How often have you drawn to a somewhat difficult target and felt you were waiting a long time for your sights to settle? Have you ever just pulled the trigger because you felt you had aimed "long enough"? Obviously, nobody would say this is a good approach, but it is difficult to resist it if you are trying to go fast. Having confidence that you got the gun out quickly can let you feel as though you have more time to wait for the sights to settle.

As to your question about whether a few hundredths are worth very much, the math is the math. They're worth more than nothing, but not a whole lot by themselves. But shaving a few hundredths, and then doing that again, and again, is how you shave tenths.

Now let's think through the question of what to do with live fire practice, keeping in mind that I am not any kind of expert on how to manage live fire practice (I would totally defer to the guys who do a lot of it; I have been disproportionately reliant on dryfire practice and shooting lots of small matches). Sounds like you want to work on transitions (good) and position entry (good), and wonder whether you should be working on draws. It doesn't seem to me that there's any reason to not include the standing draws as part of your practice without taking away a single rep from the other aspects. Consider two options:

Option A, which works only on transitions and entry: Set up 4 targets. Begin outside shooting area. On buzzer, move to shooting area, and shoot 4 targets.
Option B, which adds a standing draw: Set up 4 targets. Begin on X. On buzzer, shoot 1 target from X, move to shooting area, and shoot 3 targets. Or shoot 2 targets, move, 2 targets. You're still getting entry and transitions. You're not adding any resetting or equipment requirements. You're just throwing in some "free" work on draws. If you want to work on draws while making a simultaneous small movement, stand 2 feet off the X.

Note: I'm just an A shooter. Maybe Nick or Matt or another very good shooter will come along with a materially different view. If they do, I'd listen to them over me!

 

[egd]

OK, thanks. You make some very good points. I realize those tenths add up. Although what I really need is to quit dropping seconds by doing stupid things.

I actually have developed a practice scenario where I use 3 targets and 2 shooting boxes. I start a couple of steps outside first box, step in/draw and shoot 2 shots at each target, then run to second box and shoot two more at each target.

And BTW, JUST an A shooter looks pretty darn good to this D shooter. Although I am right on the border for C. 39.? %

OH, I do work on draw, especially for steel challenge.

 

[ATLDave]

I think a relatively brisk draw is one of my comparative strengths (and I have a BUNCH of weaknesses to offset!); nothing great, just better than other sucky aspects of my game. For whatever it is worth, four things that I found helpful when trying to pick up speed on the draw:

1) (For dryfire). Set a par time on your timer of, say, 1.3 seconds (or slower... you want it to be right at the edge of what you can reliably do). Do 10 draws chasing that beep. Drop a tenth of a second off the par time. Do 10 draws chasing that beep. Drop another tenth. And so on. You will certainly reach a point where you aren't able to keep up at all. OK, now add some time back... maybe back to 1 second, or 1.1 if 1.3 was tough at the outset. Prepare to be amazed at how long you have.. the gun will be out and pointing at the target for a while before the beep sounds. The next day, some of that speed gain will be gone, and you start again... but repetition will gradually accumulate some real speed gains.
2) Realize that, although there is often a speed/reliability-accuracy tradeoff in certain shooting related things, there's really no downside in moving your hands to the gun really fast. Just as a draw often sets the "processor clock speed" for the rest of the stage, I think speed of hands moving to the gun can often "clock" the draw. And unlike driving your arms really hard out during the later stages of the draw, there's no control tradeoff. Just rip your hands to the gun.
3) Speaking of hand speed, spend some time focusing on what your weak hand is doing. After you've drawn a gun a few bajillion times, your body knows that your right and left hands are supposed to move in some synchronized fashion. Sometimes, when you are focused on your right hand, the subconscious part of your brain will slow your right hand down to keep it synced up with the left (assuming you're right handed), which is perhaps dragging along. This can either be in the initial phases of the draw, or in building the grip and getting the gun out on target. Do some reps where your attention is on your left hand, and moving it quickly.
4) Unlike the initial move to the gun, throwing the gun out really, really fast at the end of the draw can sometimes add time... if the gun jerks to a stop at the end of your arms' extension, it will likely bounce around. You want to stop actively accelerating the gun forward at some point before the end of the draw. You kind of want it to coast to a soft stop right at the end (the last inch or two of horizontal travel). This isn't anything exaggerated, just letting the momentum carry it the last inch or two.

I feel that 1-3 are probably pretty widely shared experiences/views. I think that stuff works for almost everyone. The last one is perhaps a bit more subjective and about our internal perceptions. Maybe some or all of these would be helpful. Or maybe not.

 

[egd]

I was actually playing with that some the other day. 1.5 was my max with any semblance of being on target. I have a couple of the 1/2 size targets I use for that.
I have taken a couple of lessons from a master shooter and you echo a lot of what he said, especially about the left hand.

 

[waktasz]

How far away from the 1/2 size targets are you.
If you are training yourself for pure speed, you need to use a big ol target at a pretty close range and just push the physical mechanics of moving your hand and the gun as fast as possible. 1.5 seconds in dry fire is quite slow for anyone who has been training for any appreciable amount of time.

 

[waktasz]

So, the question - those split times in the last line there, what do I need to work on the most? The mag change being slowest by a large margin seems to be it, but what do other people run? What are the split times of a Grand Master? Wondering where to focus practice.

Thanks in advance!

Dustin

The last time I shot it I had one charlie in a total of 6.17 which is about 106% in Production.

If you break that down that's about a .75 draw, 1.05 reload and all .16 splits.
I'm not sure what I did it in that day but my guess is my draw is a little faster than that and my reload slightly slower.

Video starting at 1:26

 

[egd]

I don't know if they're actually 1/2 size, they look smaller than that, but IDK, I just call them that. I'm about 4-5 steps, all I can get in my den. My "training" is sporadic, maybe 2-3 times one week, then one or none the next. Sporadic. But I call myself going to do it more...

 

[waktasz]

Nothing wrong with putting up a full size target at that distance and using it just to work on speed.

 

[egd]

OK, I'll try that. Thanks.

 

[DLrocket89]

Thanks for the replies everyone...been a crazy couple days in life, I'll reply when able...

Dustin

 

[thomas15]

OH, I do work on draw, especially for steel challenge.

In 2017 the first year I shoot Steel Challenge, shot OSR. I have about 4 years handgun shooting and I'm 60. At the end of the 2017 season I had finally clawed my way into B class. So looking at getting to A as soon as possible this year I need to pick up about 30 seconds in a full 8 stage SCSA match. My normal draw is around 1.9 seconds so I'm working hard on my draw thinking that if I can get to down to 1.1-1.2 seconds I pick up a quarter second each string, at minimum 2 seconds each stage for 16 seconds each match is half of what I need to make A without doing anything else different.

I'm sure egd that you have thought about this, I'm just trying to remind myself of the idea. Last night I shot an ICORE match and had a draw time from hands at side of 1.4 seconds and wasn't really trying to do it fast. Using the Steve Anderson book as a guide I have ben doing a lot of draws dry-fire. Here in the North East it's still winter, the season is almost 2 months away but there are matches, even some outdoors and I'm trying to hit as many as I can. I'm hopeful that what ATLDave is saying will work for me, that a fast draw will set a fast pace and that if my overall gun handling skills improve from practicing draws it will be a benefit with other things such as transitions and trigger control. Good discussion.

 

[egd]

Yes, good discussion. I've been thinking and working on what he has said also. I'm still somewhat torn between working on pure speed vs speed with some accuracy in my dry fire. I set my timer for 1.5 and I can achieve that with what I think would be a hit in the A when I click the trigger. I'm going to 1.4 now. I'm sure I could go faster if I just drew and went click but didn't worry about trying to have the sights where they should be. Remembering grip while doing all this is still a challenge also. But--practice, practice, practice....

 

[Doublehelix]

Using the Steve Anderson book as a guide I have ben doing a lot of draws dry-fire.

Ditto this. Steve Anderson's books are a must read. Dry fire is what it is all about, especially for the draw and the reload.

 

[LiveLife]

magazine change was 1.90-ish seconds

what do I need to work on the most? The mag change being slowest by a large margin seems to be it, but what do other people run? What are the split times of a Grand Master? Wondering where to focus practice.

To improve and be as fast as you can, you need to work on each shooting aspect towards mastery and consistency.

I will tell you what top tier regional USPSA shooters told me. Ultimately you are not competing with other shooter but yourself. It's doesn't matter what they do ... what matters is what you do and whether you are improving.

Mag change time was one of many things I learned by watching video of my stages that robbed stage score. As one seasoned regional shooter suggested, I practiced mag change whenever I watched TV or movie at home until mag changes were smooth, fast and done without me looking (I placed tip of index finger in front of magazine to index with bottom of magwell). I broke down mag change into steps but worked to perform in one swift motion. Don't worry about time ... practice with focus on smoothness and speed will follow.

I went from shooting Limited to Limited 10/Production and worked to never doing mag change while engaging targets, and change mags only while moving between groups of targets. This meant I needed to maintain round count and carried extra magazines but this alone shaved several seconds from my stage time.

I set up mock USPSA stage set up in my garage and backyard and practiced moving between targets and changing mags on the move. Doing mag changes while moving took some practice to be smooth but with practice, jerky sprint and inconsistent mag changes with practice became a smooth dance with coordinated mag changes that occurred as one combined move.

When some of us had inconsistent performance running stages during range practice days, more seasoned shooters told us our stage times should be more consistent if we are consistent in our actions. It's like lower SD numbers for our loads. (You may not subscribe to "Zen" of shooting but approach each stage like a carefully orchestrated dance pattern with deliberate focus on precise repetition of body movements - And don't forget to breath)

The fastest shooters I talked to did the same thing ... they visualized the stage in their mind and did a virtual walk-through which they carried out when the buzzer went off. When they start shooting, they are running the stage for the second time, improving on areas whenever possible. But calm and poised, not rushed or hurried.

I would focus less on time and more on technique, consistency and eventual mastery where you are performing mag changes consistently as fast as you can. In time, your speed will improve. Video yourself doing mag change on the move and identify how you can smooth out your motions.

 

[ATLDave]

bds, there is a substantial portion of the shooting population that plateaus at fairly low speeds if they work on "smooth," or don't actively push beyond their current comfort level. For a lot of people, they simply have to push things past the breaking point to make big changes in speed... learn how to do X at a faster speed, then knock the rough edges off until the results at speed improve. I'm sure some people are wired conversely. If someone has been stuck for a while with one approach, it's probably worth trying the other approach for a while to see if things unstick. Note, I'm just a lousy A-shooter, so everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[waktasz]

I think you'll find that most top guys don't advocate doing reloads without looking at the magazine well.

 

[LiveLife]

bds, there is a substantial portion of the shooting population that plateaus at fairly low speeds if they work on "smooth," or don't actively push beyond their current comfort level.

What you say IS true ... forcing yourself to get past a certain time goal is a good way to improve speed. But many match shooters I shot with ALL reached a plateaus where we just couldn't seem to improve significantly past that point.

This is where more seasoned shooters helped me.

• First they video taped my stages and showed me all the areas I could improve to shave precious fractions of seconds which added up to several seconds per stage.
• Then they had me "unlearn" motions that were not smooth in the video and had me "relearn" to perform the motions smoothly in a "single" motion
• Then they had me do "round count" so I only changed mags while I moved between groups of targets
• Then they had me work on "shot calling" to increase accuracy, confidence and speed up my double-taps
• Then they had me shoot more distant targets (25 yards vs 7-15 yards) faster
• And finally, fastest shooter in our club told me to look past the front sight and watch the holes appear on target. He said once I was able to make double-taps appear consistently on target, to place them anywhere on target (Essentially point shooting while looking "through" the front sight to target).

When I was point shooting my double taps on target, they smiled and told me, welcome to "Zen" of match shooting and now work on shooting even faster.

What I realized was when I was "competing" with other shooters in the club, I was simply trying to "beat" their times with less regards to constantly improving my weak areas. When I realized I was simply competing against myself, I was able to "let go" of the hurry and focus on improving my techniques so I was getting smoother and faster on a continual basis.

I think you'll find that most top guys don't advocate doing reloads without looking at the magazine well.

It is a glance instead of tilting the head and focusing on the magwell. Your head remains steady. My mag change is done like shown in the video with finger indexing with magazine. Initially you would look at the magwell while practicing but as shown at 3:20 minute mark of video, "As you get better at it [magazine change] you don't have to look at it [magwell] ... just a glance"



And my role model for speed reload, Travis Tomasie. While he emphsized visualizing the magwell quite pronounced ...



... watch his head remain steady during mag changes during actual match. There may be glancing with eyes as he tilts the pistol while mag is inserted but his head remains steady. That was another tip the seasoned shooters told me ... maintain steady "floating" of head throughout the stage.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It is a glance instead of tilting the head and focusing on the magwell.

...my role model for speed reload

And yet in your clip of Tomasie, he is saying to look/focus on the magwell and showing that he does tilt his head during the reload

 

[LiveLife]

9mmephiphany posted too fast. See my post below.

 

[9mmepiphany]

fastest shooter in our club told me to look past the front sight and watch the holes appear on target. He said once I was able to make double-taps appear consistently on target, to place them anywhere on target (Essentially point shooting while looking "through" the front sight to target).

...welcome to "Zen" of match shooting

This is usually described as "Seeing, without Looking"...often referred to in sports or martial arts as "Soft Eyes"

 

[9mmepiphany]

the head remains steady, the pistol is tilted for visualization of magwell.

Looking, glancing, and visualization are all the same thing. You don't have to move your head to look at something in your "work space", you only have to move your eyes

 

[LiveLife]

Actually you are correct. At 5:18 minute mark of video, he does dip his head slightly.