USPSA draw and mag change split times
- Thread starter DLrocket89
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LiveLife
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Yes, already realized it was not Tomasie and just got done changing the video minute mark to 5:18 on my previous post.
DLrocket89
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Everyone,
Thanks for the interesting conversations here. Lots of good stuff I'm sure I'll be going through for awhile.
One thing I will say, I had a friend of mine video me on my phone, in slow mo. One of the things immediately apparent was my weak hand on my mag change... I'd look down at the pistol, push the magazine release, and then wait for the magazine to be basically out of the pistol before I ever reached for the new one. So, I'm sitting there watching the video yelling at myself "WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR LEFT HAND??? MOVE IT!!! STOP WAITING!!!". I think the root of that was my first pistol had magazines that wouldn't really drop free, so I had to assist with my left hand. Not so with the current pistol (CZ75 SP-01 Tact). So, I've started working on that, having my right hand dropping the magazine and the left already reaching for the new one.
Someone made a comment about how people will plateau at "slow" if they're not pushed. So true, especially with my friend. He's in his late 40s and has done nothing but target shooting for 25 years...USPSA isn't his "thing" naturally. As he was shooting, he was speeding up between each shot as he remembered to go faster...his splits between shots would go .45, .35, .30, .25, .22 as he shot a mag. Two hours of me screaming at him "FASTER!" as he was shooting and he was at a pretty stable .25 and shooting all A's.
This weekend coming up will be fascinating...I put a Cajun trigger system in my CZ, my friend picked up a new CZ Shadow 2 (after how much he enjoyed shooting my SP-01). After watching the same video many times, I'm going to ask him to shoot a bunch more for me to see how that goes.
Thanks again everyone!
Dustin
Thanks for the interesting conversations here. Lots of good stuff I'm sure I'll be going through for awhile.
One thing I will say, I had a friend of mine video me on my phone, in slow mo. One of the things immediately apparent was my weak hand on my mag change... I'd look down at the pistol, push the magazine release, and then wait for the magazine to be basically out of the pistol before I ever reached for the new one. So, I'm sitting there watching the video yelling at myself "WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR LEFT HAND??? MOVE IT!!! STOP WAITING!!!". I think the root of that was my first pistol had magazines that wouldn't really drop free, so I had to assist with my left hand. Not so with the current pistol (CZ75 SP-01 Tact). So, I've started working on that, having my right hand dropping the magazine and the left already reaching for the new one.
Someone made a comment about how people will plateau at "slow" if they're not pushed. So true, especially with my friend. He's in his late 40s and has done nothing but target shooting for 25 years...USPSA isn't his "thing" naturally. As he was shooting, he was speeding up between each shot as he remembered to go faster...his splits between shots would go .45, .35, .30, .25, .22 as he shot a mag. Two hours of me screaming at him "FASTER!" as he was shooting and he was at a pretty stable .25 and shooting all A's.
This weekend coming up will be fascinating...I put a Cajun trigger system in my CZ, my friend picked up a new CZ Shadow 2 (after how much he enjoyed shooting my SP-01). After watching the same video many times, I'm going to ask him to shoot a bunch more for me to see how that goes.
Thanks again everyone!
Dustin
This then brings up the obvious question of, "What is your weak hand doing during your draw?"
LiveLife
Member
When I switched my USPSA caliber from 45ACP to 40S&W, I ran into my Glock 22s not always dropping magazines (they were metal lined and "supposed" to be drop-free), problem I did not have with the 1911. To not waste time, as I depressed the mag release, I "flicked" my right hand holding the pistol to help toss the magazine out while left hand reached for another magazine. By the time my left hand was aligning the magazine towards the pistol, magwell was returning back to receive the replacement magazine.
Just as I posted previously, practice mag changes so it becomes second nature. While watching TV, I would tell people to practice aim/point COM whenever a new person came on the scene and practice changing magazine between aim/point.
Good plan. And while watching the video, keep a notepad handy (make two columns) and write down all the things you did wrong on left column and after video review, write down on the right column all the things you need to do to correct what you did wrong on the left column. Then just do the things on the right column.
If all possible, I would suggest you set up a mock up stage for you to do:
- Practice starting box from draw to engage the first group of targets
- At least two groups of targets for you to transition between targets and do mag change during the move
Practice until your motions and movements are smooth and fast. As you arrive at the next group of targets, practice until you are ready to engage the targets as part of the movement. You will note many "pauses" in your action - work to eliminate all the pauses and you will shave additional seconds off your stage times.
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DLrocket89
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Oddly enough, that seems to be OK. My left hand meets my right hand and the pistol just in front of me which extend together and start shooting immediately. Unfortunately, the video that I have came from the right of me, so can't see much of what my left is doing. Will fix that this weekend coming up...
DLrocket89
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BDS - sounds like a good plan on a stage to force practice of these things. One of the reasons I always liked El Presidente, packs the basics into a simple to assemble stage.
I have a listing of all of the USPSA classifiers, along with all of those that I have the range equipment to set up properly. Making 5 more target stands this week, so that list will expand a bit. Going to try and get left and right videos of each one we run this weekend.
I have a listing of all of the USPSA classifiers, along with all of those that I have the range equipment to set up properly. Making 5 more target stands this week, so that list will expand a bit. Going to try and get left and right videos of each one we run this weekend.
LiveLife
Member
Sounds good.
Keep us posted how you do on your next match.
Keep us posted how you do on your next match.
Man, this thread just gets better as it goes. May be sticky worthy. I just shot a match yesterday and I was mostly pleased with it. I was more in the middle of the pack instead of near the bottom. My biggest problem yesterday (and often) is remembering to follow through with a stage plan after the BEEP. I lose more time and/or points that way than any other. I skipped over a double target yesterday so there went 40 points in penalties alone. AAARRGH! Shooting steel is also a nemesis, too many misses.
I'm going to keep working. It does feel good to see some improvement though. Thanks to everyone for the help.
I'm going to keep working. It does feel good to see some improvement though. Thanks to everyone for the help.
Those brain-freeze/plan-dump/forgot-a-target instances are hard to avoid when you are learning the game. They really do get easier to avoid as you simply shoot more matches. After a while, you start recognizing where the potential missed targets or big plan departures are, and spend more time focusing on them.
I shot a match over the weekend with 8 stages. The last stage (for my squad) was a big one, with a full 32 round count and at least a half-dozen shooting positions. Very early on in the walkthrough, I noticed one target, hidden far downrange, tucked between a wall and some no-shoots, that could only be seen from a fairly narrow spot 30+ yards away... and a half step away from another spot where several other targets were available. This little position was not the first position on the stage, nor the last. I can just about guarantee you that in my first year of shooting matches, I would have FTE'ed that target at least 50% of the time. But with a few years under my belt, I immediately recognized that as one of the real key points in the stage. I was up 3rd, so I didn't have a huge amount of time to burn in all the aspects of the stage plan in great detail, but I knew that one was the potential stage killer, either because of simply missing it or lacking the visual patience to make a fairly difficult shot. I didn't shoot the stage especially well (although it did happen to be the high LTD hit factor on the stage), but it was not the inferno of f-up that it likely would have been earlier in my competitive shooting life.
You can make a lot of progress on technical skills in dry fire or live fire practice, but only shooting a fair number of matches will condition your brain to not be overwhelmed during stage assessment, planning, and execution. If your brain is like mine, anyway, and God help you if it is!
I shot a match over the weekend with 8 stages. The last stage (for my squad) was a big one, with a full 32 round count and at least a half-dozen shooting positions. Very early on in the walkthrough, I noticed one target, hidden far downrange, tucked between a wall and some no-shoots, that could only be seen from a fairly narrow spot 30+ yards away... and a half step away from another spot where several other targets were available. This little position was not the first position on the stage, nor the last. I can just about guarantee you that in my first year of shooting matches, I would have FTE'ed that target at least 50% of the time. But with a few years under my belt, I immediately recognized that as one of the real key points in the stage. I was up 3rd, so I didn't have a huge amount of time to burn in all the aspects of the stage plan in great detail, but I knew that one was the potential stage killer, either because of simply missing it or lacking the visual patience to make a fairly difficult shot. I didn't shoot the stage especially well (although it did happen to be the high LTD hit factor on the stage), but it was not the inferno of f-up that it likely would have been earlier in my competitive shooting life.
You can make a lot of progress on technical skills in dry fire or live fire practice, but only shooting a fair number of matches will condition your brain to not be overwhelmed during stage assessment, planning, and execution. If your brain is like mine, anyway, and God help you if it is!
LiveLife
Member
I suffered the same thing and what helped me were these:
- Before you shoot the stage, clear your head/mind and remove everything except for you and the targets
- Then imagine a clear, calm and silent white background in the 3rd person perspective (zoom out) - You are looking down from like 10-15 feet above the stage so you can visualize the entire stage
- Now see yourself in the start box and all the targets clearly
- Imagine yourself engaging the targets and note all the movements in slow motion with a steady line that follows the head
- Make specific and detailed mental notes of when you change magazines (note round count) and focus on footwork to efficiently move between targets
- Repeat running through the stage following the smooth line on head over and over (faster each time) until you worked out all the difficult parts of the stage
Best time to do this is during range practice sessions or mock up stage at home. Do it enough times until it becomes natural during match stages.
To really improve your game, often it's more mental than physical.
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As long as we're on the subject of visualization, I'll throw this in:
A lot of times, you will see relatively newer shooters cycling through the "walk-through" line endlessly, and repeatedly walking through the stage after "range is clear" until they are up. On the other hand, many more experienced/higher level shooters will only physically walk through their plan (after quickly assessing the stage at the outset) a couple of times during walkthrough, and then may only walk/run it once more before they shoot.
Is that because they are less interested in being prepared? No. It is because they have developed better visualization skills. They can quickly "capture" the relevant aspects of the stage, and then "shoot it in their head" without having to wander around. They can get in many, many more burn-in reps of their stage plan than they could if they were trudging around the stage, being yelled at for not helping paste, etc.
It's definitely worth putting some effort into learning this skill, although, again, simple reps of shooting a fair number of matches will force it along (if you're willing to try).
A lot of times, you will see relatively newer shooters cycling through the "walk-through" line endlessly, and repeatedly walking through the stage after "range is clear" until they are up. On the other hand, many more experienced/higher level shooters will only physically walk through their plan (after quickly assessing the stage at the outset) a couple of times during walkthrough, and then may only walk/run it once more before they shoot.
Is that because they are less interested in being prepared? No. It is because they have developed better visualization skills. They can quickly "capture" the relevant aspects of the stage, and then "shoot it in their head" without having to wander around. They can get in many, many more burn-in reps of their stage plan than they could if they were trudging around the stage, being yelled at for not helping paste, etc.
It's definitely worth putting some effort into learning this skill, although, again, simple reps of shooting a fair number of matches will force it along (if you're willing to try).
LiveLife
Member
Ding Ding Ding!
Bingo!
And you will get better with visualization more you practice by "physically" walking through a practice stage or mock up stage to the point where you just need to do it in your head. Imagine recording a video and playing back slowly then increasing the speed but from a higher vantage point so you can clearly see the entire stage.
ny32182
Member
How to approach a stage:
1) Find all the targets and determine all the required shooting positions. Sounds obvious, but most newbies don't make an actual complete effort to do this.
2) Come up with your optimal stage plan. (possibly a huge topic on its own, but includes deciding where you are going to shoot targets that are available from multiple places, the order in which you are going to shoot all targets, and deciding on reload placement).
3) Visualize shooting your plan until it is second nature. Depending on the complexity of the stage, maybe 10+ times. However many times it takes to where every individual action while shooting the stage is fluidly automatic after the previous action. Once the buzzer goes off, you are in more of an observational mode of watching your shooting. You shouldn't have to think. If you are thinking on the clock, something has gone horribly awry, or your visualization was inadequate.
I can tell you that 100% of my visualization is absolutely first person. Just thinking about 3rd person visualization is making my head hurt. I want detailed first person visualization of everything that is key to that stage, including, but not limited to:
-Sight picture needed for each shot
-How the targets will come into view at each position, and where my gun needs to be as that happens
-Reloads
-Transitions
-Any key footwork that must go well on that stage
If it has to happen for a stage run to be successful, I want it in my visualization.
1) Find all the targets and determine all the required shooting positions. Sounds obvious, but most newbies don't make an actual complete effort to do this.
2) Come up with your optimal stage plan. (possibly a huge topic on its own, but includes deciding where you are going to shoot targets that are available from multiple places, the order in which you are going to shoot all targets, and deciding on reload placement).
3) Visualize shooting your plan until it is second nature. Depending on the complexity of the stage, maybe 10+ times. However many times it takes to where every individual action while shooting the stage is fluidly automatic after the previous action. Once the buzzer goes off, you are in more of an observational mode of watching your shooting. You shouldn't have to think. If you are thinking on the clock, something has gone horribly awry, or your visualization was inadequate.
I can tell you that 100% of my visualization is absolutely first person. Just thinking about 3rd person visualization is making my head hurt. I want detailed first person visualization of everything that is key to that stage, including, but not limited to:
-Sight picture needed for each shot
-How the targets will come into view at each position, and where my gun needs to be as that happens
-Reloads
-Transitions
-Any key footwork that must go well on that stage
If it has to happen for a stage run to be successful, I want it in my visualization.
LiveLife
Member
For those of you not familiar with ny32182, believe me, study his posts and you will improve your game.
Maybe I wasn't clearl when I posted "Now see yourself in the start box and all the targets clearly" - This is done in FIRST PERSON point of view. The third person POV of the stage is to give you an overview but the detailed slow motion run through of the stage is done in first person POV.
Absolutely.
Maybe I wasn't clearl when I posted "Now see yourself in the start box and all the targets clearly" - This is done in FIRST PERSON point of view. The third person POV of the stage is to give you an overview but the detailed slow motion run through of the stage is done in first person POV.
- Before you shoot the stage, clear your head/mind and remove everything except for you and the targets
- Then imagine a clear, calm and silent white background in the 3rd person perspective (zoom out) - You are looking down from like 10-15 feet above the stage so you can visualize the entire stage
- Now see yourself in the start box and all the targets clearly (Change to 1st person - zoom in - see the next group of targets beyond the current group of targets)
- Imagine yourself engaging the targets and note all the movements in slow motion with a steady line that follows the head (See the path of your head through the entire stage in 1st person POV)
- Make specific and detailed mental notes of when you change magazines (note round count) and focus on footwork to efficiently move between targets
- Repeat running through the stage following the smooth line on head over and over (faster each time) until you worked out all the difficult parts of the stage
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LiveLife
Member
ATLDave, we are talking about "mastery" which involves deliberate practice, not just going through the motion.
So you start small.
As I posted for DLrocket89 and egd, start simple with a start box and two groups of targets at home or range (if you have access to action pistol range where you can freely run around). Like ny32182 posted, clearly visualize your "shooting plan" during your walk through. If it helps, I imagine I am recording a video during my walk through and play it back in my head slowly then faster.
You practice your "stage/shooting plan" visualized in your head until you are able to execute precisely when the buzzer goes off. At home you verbalize "bang-bang" for double taps but during range practice, you actually shoot double taps and record your time with a timer.
Volunteer to observe or help out with stage setup/layout/design. There are limited types/combinations of targets/layouts (single/multiple/hostage, swinging/poping/spining/turning/sliding, steel/poppers, shoot through opening/around cover/obstacles, random moving targets, etc.) that when you see a familiar layout, it will help with expediting visualization. Also practice moving fast side to side while taking moderately smaller steps as misstep could throw your timing/body alignment with targets.
So if you start out with 2 targets and next group of 3 targets, your "shooting plan" is going to be:
When you encounter a set up/layout that is particularly challenging, duplicate the layout at home or during range practice and walk/run through until you reach level of mastery. So when you encounter same/similar set up/layout at the match, you will be that much more prepared.
Since I helped out with stage setup at our club, we were fortunate enough to be able to duplicate previous matches' stages during range practice days and each shooter ran the stage while other shooters took critical notes and we "coached" and pointed out all the mistakes made so subsequent practice run became deliberate with enhanced stage times.
If any shooter had difficulties, we would slow down a particular part of stage and worked out the issues so the shooter could run the stage smoothly and fast.
Yes, practice until you reach mastery ... and mock up stage walk/run through doesn't even require bullets.
So you start small.
As I posted for DLrocket89 and egd, start simple with a start box and two groups of targets at home or range (if you have access to action pistol range where you can freely run around). Like ny32182 posted, clearly visualize your "shooting plan" during your walk through. If it helps, I imagine I am recording a video during my walk through and play it back in my head slowly then faster.
You practice your "stage/shooting plan" visualized in your head until you are able to execute precisely when the buzzer goes off. At home you verbalize "bang-bang" for double taps but during range practice, you actually shoot double taps and record your time with a timer.
Volunteer to observe or help out with stage setup/layout/design. There are limited types/combinations of targets/layouts (single/multiple/hostage, swinging/poping/spining/turning/sliding, steel/poppers, shoot through opening/around cover/obstacles, random moving targets, etc.) that when you see a familiar layout, it will help with expediting visualization. Also practice moving fast side to side while taking moderately smaller steps as misstep could throw your timing/body alignment with targets.
So if you start out with 2 targets and next group of 3 targets, your "shooting plan" is going to be:
- Smooth/quick draw and fast "bang-bang-bang-bang" double taps in one quick motions after buzzer
- As you finish the last double tap, move smoothly/quickly with your head following that imaginary line towards the next group of targets (After you draw, your head "locks" with your pistol so wherever you look, your pistol is pointed the same)
- As you arrive at the next group of targets, you "execute" the footwork and motion already played out in your head and engage the targets with fast "bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang" double taps
- If shooting Limited 10/Production, as you depart for your next group of targets, you are already initiating the mag change by dropping/flicking the empty magazine and your support hand reaching for next magazine (Mag change you practiced to mastery while watching TV)
- So before you arrive at your next group of targets with your head following that imaginary line smoothly, you release the slide and return to your grip/stance to engage the targets
When you encounter a set up/layout that is particularly challenging, duplicate the layout at home or during range practice and walk/run through until you reach level of mastery. So when you encounter same/similar set up/layout at the match, you will be that much more prepared.
Since I helped out with stage setup at our club, we were fortunate enough to be able to duplicate previous matches' stages during range practice days and each shooter ran the stage while other shooters took critical notes and we "coached" and pointed out all the mistakes made so subsequent practice run became deliberate with enhanced stage times.
If any shooter had difficulties, we would slow down a particular part of stage and worked out the issues so the shooter could run the stage smoothly and fast.
Yes, practice until you reach mastery ... and mock up stage walk/run through doesn't even require bullets.
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Been "volunteering" as the MD for a weekly club match for 3+ years now, plus kicking in on other matches on a sometimes basis. Pretty familiar with designing and setting up stages at this point!
My post was just a T-I-C way of pointing out that, while visualization is very useful, not everyone uses the somewhat full-featured version you described. I just shoot it in first person in my head. I'm just an A-class shooter, so nobody should take anything I say about how to perform too seriously, though.
Like you, I would absolutely defer to NY's advice.
LiveLife
Member
I got you.
But as ny32182 posted, if you want to significantly reduce stage times to be competitive, you must learn to fully visualize the stage or you will be surpassed by those who can on match day.
ATLDave, you may find it funny but I actually ended up going the opposite way. When I first started shooting USPSA, I was OCD and wanted to do everything perfect and shave as much time as possible. I did not care how i looked or what my body did to achieve faster times.
Then after being talked to on the "Zen" way of shooting, I wanted to step away from the "gaming" aspect of the matches and individually practiced on each motion/action of shooting until I felt I reached my highest level of mastery. I felt while I was taught to point-shoot, I knew I had not master it. So I started practicing each aspect of shooting as drills, kinda like martial arts "kata" so I could duplicate what I used to do with sighted shooting with point-shooting.
I am currently teaching coworkers/friends and their families informally defensive shooting and to expedite their practical shooting skills, I am starting them out with point shooting (yes, with eyes closed for 3-5 yard targets initially and later eyes open at 7-10 yards). Thankfully when I demonstrate point shooting double taps on headshot targets, I have so far nailed the COM on head targets. But seeing them do double taps while point shooting at multiple targets makes me wonder how I could have enhanced engaging close USPSA targets when I competed.
Since some have shown interest, we may end up setting up USPSA style stages for sighted/point shooting practice (There is no USPSA matches near by).
At this point in my life, I am happy with my shooting abilities but for those starting out shooting USPSA matches, I think keeping minds open so you can engage targets and produce double taps as fast as possible at will anywhere on the target based on core foundation principles with practice to mastery is more beneficial than simply working to obtain faster stage times.
For me, I am hoping that I could practice point shooting to the point where I could do things like these - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/page-6#post-10496245
But as ny32182 posted, if you want to significantly reduce stage times to be competitive, you must learn to fully visualize the stage or you will be surpassed by those who can on match day.
ATLDave, you may find it funny but I actually ended up going the opposite way. When I first started shooting USPSA, I was OCD and wanted to do everything perfect and shave as much time as possible. I did not care how i looked or what my body did to achieve faster times.
Then after being talked to on the "Zen" way of shooting, I wanted to step away from the "gaming" aspect of the matches and individually practiced on each motion/action of shooting until I felt I reached my highest level of mastery. I felt while I was taught to point-shoot, I knew I had not master it. So I started practicing each aspect of shooting as drills, kinda like martial arts "kata" so I could duplicate what I used to do with sighted shooting with point-shooting.
I am currently teaching coworkers/friends and their families informally defensive shooting and to expedite their practical shooting skills, I am starting them out with point shooting (yes, with eyes closed for 3-5 yard targets initially and later eyes open at 7-10 yards). Thankfully when I demonstrate point shooting double taps on headshot targets, I have so far nailed the COM on head targets. But seeing them do double taps while point shooting at multiple targets makes me wonder how I could have enhanced engaging close USPSA targets when I competed.
Since some have shown interest, we may end up setting up USPSA style stages for sighted/point shooting practice (There is no USPSA matches near by).
At this point in my life, I am happy with my shooting abilities but for those starting out shooting USPSA matches, I think keeping minds open so you can engage targets and produce double taps as fast as possible at will anywhere on the target based on core foundation principles with practice to mastery is more beneficial than simply working to obtain faster stage times.
For me, I am hoping that I could practice point shooting to the point where I could do things like these - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/page-6#post-10496245
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Oh, I totally agree. I just don't do the 3rd person thing or have any floating lines or transparencies in my targets. I completely agree that visualization is critical, and that better shooters are usually able to "program" a stage more thoroughly through visualization than the less experienced shooters can do with endless physical walking of the stage.
LiveLife
Member
And I agree, it's hard to soak in and memorize the entire stage in a few minutes on match day.
That's why I suggest practice visualizing smaller stages and doing walk/run through.
Once you "master" a few basic stages, expanding to more complex stages is easier as you are adding a new section or two rather trying to memorize the entire new stage in your mind.
As to 3rd person perspective of stage, I used it to get a "snap shot" summary of the stage before I start the detail walk through. Maybe that came from playing different first person shooter games in my 20s where you zoomed out to visualize the entire map and zoomed back in. And being able to visualize the next group of targets past the current group of targets helped me prepare my footwork and mag changes.
That's why I suggest practice visualizing smaller stages and doing walk/run through.
Once you "master" a few basic stages, expanding to more complex stages is easier as you are adding a new section or two rather trying to memorize the entire new stage in your mind.
As to 3rd person perspective of stage, I used it to get a "snap shot" summary of the stage before I start the detail walk through. Maybe that came from playing different first person shooter games in my 20s where you zoomed out to visualize the entire map and zoomed back in. And being able to visualize the next group of targets past the current group of targets helped me prepare my footwork and mag changes.
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