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ATLDave, sorry for rambling. The Florida shooting messed me up the past week. Have a 18 y/o daughter who just graduated from High School.
Multiple double tap = double taps?
USPSA draw and mag change split times
- Thread starter DLrocket89
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LiveLife
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If not double tap, what do we do for USPSA?
As far as I know, it's been "tap tap" or double tap with front sight flash.
As far as I know, it's been "tap tap" or double tap with front sight flash.
LiveLife
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I changed the comment to "... see the next group of targets beyond the current group of targets." Maybe that will help instead of transparency of targets.bds, the cinematographer in my head is not good enough to do all those different zooms and cuts, and I don't have the CGI budget for putting smooth lines or transparent targets in the film!
For others, there are a lot of information different members posted which can shave stage times. Try them out and use whatever methods work for you to memorize the stage walk/run through in your head.
Sooner you can visualize the entire stage in your head, better you can develop the "stage/shooting plan" ny32182 posted.
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Unfortunately, I think the difference has been corrupted over the years.
I'm just happy when I find someone who understands that there is an actual difference.
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LiveLife
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Production stage shooting explained with emphasis on speed vs accuracy where accuracy trumps speed and slowest shooter (Rob Leatham) wins the stage (Starts at 3:00 minute mark of video).
At 7:30 minute mark of video, zoomed out overview of stage with zoomed in detailed stage walk through like I outlined in post #42 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hange-split-times.832796/page-2#post-10773418
Illustrated throughout the video is the focus on accuracy overshadowing speed especially for Production with 10 round magazines due to scoring.
Here's an example of stage walk through incorporating mag change points for Production and developing stage/shooting plan how to engage different types of targets (0:30 second mark of video)
Stage walk through with Rob Leatham - He explains how he develops his stage/shooting plan and mag change points. He illustrates how to shave time so he has more time shooting.
At 7:30 minute mark of video, zoomed out overview of stage with zoomed in detailed stage walk through like I outlined in post #42 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hange-split-times.832796/page-2#post-10773418
Illustrated throughout the video is the focus on accuracy overshadowing speed especially for Production with 10 round magazines due to scoring.
Here's an example of stage walk through incorporating mag change points for Production and developing stage/shooting plan how to engage different types of targets (0:30 second mark of video)
Stage walk through with Rob Leatham - He explains how he develops his stage/shooting plan and mag change points. He illustrates how to shave time so he has more time shooting.
- As you walk through the stage to develop your stage/shooting plan, identify how best to engage the targets and when to do mag changes
- Change your plan as often as necessary if better plan comes up like other shooters shooting more efficiently
- Have Plan B in case Plan A doesn't work out
- 1/10th here and 1/10 there will add up to saving seconds
- Watch and learn from other shooters shoot difficult parts of stage
- Watch other shooters shoot and openly share and problem solve with their difficulties and they will return the favor and watch/help you solve your difficulties
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LiveLife
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Rob Leatham explains speed AND accuracy and demonstrates most people are capable of sub 0.2 second reaction time. At 3:20 minute mark of video he states, "Why would you ever pull the trigger slowly?" and explains the arts of "Jerking the trigger WITHOUT moving the pistol".
I tell people to dry fire while watching the front sight and buy pistols (especially match pistols) that do not move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released (so you start out with inherently more accurate pistol out of the box). I went through several pistols before I selected my last Glock for purchase. When the range staff became curious, I showed what I was looking for and range staff was surprised just how much front sight jumped/moved when the striker was released on pistols out of the box. Also when practicing dry fires or before shooting at the range, practice until you can release the hammer/striker without moving the front sight (Now you know where those low shots/flyers come from - shooter input on trigger). If your pistol still moves/jumps the front sight, then you may need to consider a trigger job or polish.
Rob emphasizes process used to shoot fast and accurate at 4 yards does not change regardless how far you are (Think about that as that is what I realized when told to "Shoot past the front sight" and "Zen" of making holes appear on target. When you practice until double taps appear at will anywhere on target, you move closer to shooting accurate and fast so you can focus more on other aspects of shooing a stage like round count, mag change, foot work, etc.).
When asked how far to push oneself, Rob says to practice until the point of failure. At 5:25 minute mark of video, Rob demonstrates accuracy deteriorating independent of speed. He comments when accuracy starts to suffer, we commonly tell the shooter to slow down - No, says Rob as speed has nothing to do with POI moving away from POA (Think hard about that). Instead of slowing down, we need to work on how to "jerk" or pull/depress the trigger without moving the pistol.
There, now you can shoot fast and accurate to get higher stage scores.
I tell people to dry fire while watching the front sight and buy pistols (especially match pistols) that do not move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released (so you start out with inherently more accurate pistol out of the box). I went through several pistols before I selected my last Glock for purchase. When the range staff became curious, I showed what I was looking for and range staff was surprised just how much front sight jumped/moved when the striker was released on pistols out of the box. Also when practicing dry fires or before shooting at the range, practice until you can release the hammer/striker without moving the front sight (Now you know where those low shots/flyers come from - shooter input on trigger). If your pistol still moves/jumps the front sight, then you may need to consider a trigger job or polish.
Rob emphasizes process used to shoot fast and accurate at 4 yards does not change regardless how far you are (Think about that as that is what I realized when told to "Shoot past the front sight" and "Zen" of making holes appear on target. When you practice until double taps appear at will anywhere on target, you move closer to shooting accurate and fast so you can focus more on other aspects of shooing a stage like round count, mag change, foot work, etc.).
When asked how far to push oneself, Rob says to practice until the point of failure. At 5:25 minute mark of video, Rob demonstrates accuracy deteriorating independent of speed. He comments when accuracy starts to suffer, we commonly tell the shooter to slow down - No, says Rob as speed has nothing to do with POI moving away from POA (Think hard about that). Instead of slowing down, we need to work on how to "jerk" or pull/depress the trigger without moving the pistol.
There, now you can shoot fast and accurate to get higher stage scores.
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LiveLife
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It's tap tap with front sight flash for each tap.
Doublehelix
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This is a really great thread. As someone mentioned earlier, this needs to be a Sticky.
LiveLife
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If you can incorporate mag changes on the move between groups of targets, time it takes to change magazine won't matter that much as long as you finish mag change before arriving at the next group of targets.
If you perform mag changes only when the slide locks back, consider this.
As I do my walk through of the stage, I will also do round count and whenever possible, I will identify where to drop the mag with a round in the chamber (10+1 round count) to allow the rest of mag changes for the stage without having the slide lock back from an empty magazine.
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Yeah, "no standing reloads" (excluding mandatory reloads on short stages where it is forced as part of the stage briefing/procedure) is literally the very first "gaming" thing people usually learn about USPSA. That's the easiest, no-new-skill-needed, free HF pickup imaginable.
LiveLife
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This is another tip that helped me a lot - Practice with smaller targets.
I use 8.5"x11" copy paper as targets as they are cheap along with bingo daubers to mark circles instead of using sticky circles. I use copy paper cut in half lengthwise and in quarters to practice double taps at different distances. Even if you are shooting at a range where you cannot set up multiple targets at different distances, you can tape up 1/2 sheet and 1/4 sheet targets on the cardboard.
Can't imagine shooting double taps at 1/4 sheet targets at 7-15 yards? Like other shooting practice, start at 7 yards and practice until you can get all the shots inside the paper, then incrementally increase your distance. Over time, shooting double taps at 10-15 yards into 1/4 sheet targets will become easier and more consistent.
So with 4 pieces of copy paper targets on the cardboard, I practice shooting different patterns (Z or O or H or I) until I can get all of my double taps inside the paper and then increase speed. Practicing with smaller targets will make USPSA targets look bigger in comparison on match day (Visualize 1/4 sheet targets superimposed on cardboard targets).
How about shooting more than 2 shots per target?
On one stage, I saw our best Open shooter shoot wildly as he rushed through the targets shooting more than 2 rounds at some targets.
When I asked him why he said we can shoot more than 2 shots per target and get scored on two best shots. He said he was trying to get faster stage time (which favors Open scoring) and he ended up winning the stage.
So when faced with difficult target/distant steel poppers, if you have extra rounds in the magazine, this is one option to consider (excluding no-shoot targets) instead of slowing down significantly to hit the targets (and do a mag change as you move away from the targets).
I use 8.5"x11" copy paper as targets as they are cheap along with bingo daubers to mark circles instead of using sticky circles. I use copy paper cut in half lengthwise and in quarters to practice double taps at different distances. Even if you are shooting at a range where you cannot set up multiple targets at different distances, you can tape up 1/2 sheet and 1/4 sheet targets on the cardboard.
Can't imagine shooting double taps at 1/4 sheet targets at 7-15 yards? Like other shooting practice, start at 7 yards and practice until you can get all the shots inside the paper, then incrementally increase your distance. Over time, shooting double taps at 10-15 yards into 1/4 sheet targets will become easier and more consistent.
So with 4 pieces of copy paper targets on the cardboard, I practice shooting different patterns (Z or O or H or I) until I can get all of my double taps inside the paper and then increase speed. Practicing with smaller targets will make USPSA targets look bigger in comparison on match day (Visualize 1/4 sheet targets superimposed on cardboard targets).
How about shooting more than 2 shots per target?
On one stage, I saw our best Open shooter shoot wildly as he rushed through the targets shooting more than 2 rounds at some targets.
When I asked him why he said we can shoot more than 2 shots per target and get scored on two best shots. He said he was trying to get faster stage time (which favors Open scoring) and he ended up winning the stage.
So when faced with difficult target/distant steel poppers, if you have extra rounds in the magazine, this is one option to consider (excluding no-shoot targets) instead of slowing down significantly to hit the targets (and do a mag change as you move away from the targets).
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It's pretty common to see shooters in the higher capacity divisions throw 3 or 4 shots at things like distant swingers or extensively hard-covered targets on comstock stages. This is a terrible idea, though, if the shots are hard because of no-shoots nearby! I have seen many, many shooters throw 3 shots at something like a clamshell target, put the first two in the brown, and then a 3rd in the no-shoot as it pops up!* Accuracy by volume can work in some situations, but not in others. Rarely works in production/L10, virtually never a useful strategy in SS major or revolver.
* Of course, if they were doing any kind of shot calling, they wouldn't have slung the 3rd round, but they were generally just sticking to a pre-programmed plan to blast X rounds while shoving the gun in the direction of the target.
* Of course, if they were doing any kind of shot calling, they wouldn't have slung the 3rd round, but they were generally just sticking to a pre-programmed plan to blast X rounds while shoving the gun in the direction of the target.
LiveLife
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Shaving stage time.
Here Max Michel talks about people shooting about at the same speed but 20 second vs 40 second stage times come down to time spent on transition and movement.
Here Max Michel talks about people shooting about at the same speed but 20 second vs 40 second stage times come down to time spent on transition and movement.
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DLrocket89
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Thanks everyone for the great thread.
I was able to spend yesterday shooting for about 5 hours. Set up five different classifiers and ran each one a couple times...was also shooting with 4 others, so spent a lot of time RSO'ing as 2 of them were new to the sport. Recorded my hit factors, draw times, and mag change times.
El Presidente - ran twice as a C class, draws of 1.8, mag change split of 2.0
Too Close for Comfort - ran twice as C class, draws of 1.6, mag split of 2.0
Works for Me - ran twice as C, once as B, draws of 1.8, mag change of 3.0 (moving to other side of barrier here)
Can you Count - ran twice as B, draws of 1.3, mag swaps of 1.5 (very close targets, so getting on target at 30' elsewhere takes me about half a second)
El Strong/Weak Pres - ran once as C and once as D (no shoot got in the way on the second one) - draws of 2.5, mags of 3.0...again, trying to be accurate. And I was getting tired, 5 hours of slogging thru mud and ice in a corn field in northern Wisconsin was wearing on me, focus wasn't what it could've been.
I had my friend shoot one video...unfortunately I had him record it in 4K, so it's still uploading to Google drive, 300-400MB or so. Going to try and pare it down some, will then post.
Hopefully will get to do more shooting today, will try and get more videos.
So, if I take a target at 30', it looks like it's about 1.8 draw and a 2.0 mag change. That's been good for consistently upper C's with a few lower B's thrown in. I assume both of these need substantial work if I am to move up, correct? My only real excuse is that I had a hoodie on and the cloth was getting Tangled in the holster and mag pouches....pretty lame excuse if I'm honest though.
Thanks again everyone for a great thread!
Dustin
I was able to spend yesterday shooting for about 5 hours. Set up five different classifiers and ran each one a couple times...was also shooting with 4 others, so spent a lot of time RSO'ing as 2 of them were new to the sport. Recorded my hit factors, draw times, and mag change times.
El Presidente - ran twice as a C class, draws of 1.8, mag change split of 2.0
Too Close for Comfort - ran twice as C class, draws of 1.6, mag split of 2.0
Works for Me - ran twice as C, once as B, draws of 1.8, mag change of 3.0 (moving to other side of barrier here)
Can you Count - ran twice as B, draws of 1.3, mag swaps of 1.5 (very close targets, so getting on target at 30' elsewhere takes me about half a second)
El Strong/Weak Pres - ran once as C and once as D (no shoot got in the way on the second one) - draws of 2.5, mags of 3.0...again, trying to be accurate. And I was getting tired, 5 hours of slogging thru mud and ice in a corn field in northern Wisconsin was wearing on me, focus wasn't what it could've been.
I had my friend shoot one video...unfortunately I had him record it in 4K, so it's still uploading to Google drive, 300-400MB or so. Going to try and pare it down some, will then post.
Hopefully will get to do more shooting today, will try and get more videos.
So, if I take a target at 30', it looks like it's about 1.8 draw and a 2.0 mag change. That's been good for consistently upper C's with a few lower B's thrown in. I assume both of these need substantial work if I am to move up, correct? My only real excuse is that I had a hoodie on and the cloth was getting Tangled in the holster and mag pouches....pretty lame excuse if I'm honest though.
Thanks again everyone for a great thread!
Dustin
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Sounds good. And don't forget to have FUN! Also, eat a GOOD breakfast and bring plenty of snacks/hydration - stay away from too much caffeine if your body is sensitive to caffeine.
After several failed attempts at setting up shooting session for a coworker due to rain, we finally said "Heck with rain, we will shoot rain or shine!" Well, after a nice breakfast, we went to buy rain suits because it started pouring. I did have portable 10x10 shade tent set up but we essentially ended up shooting several hours in pouring rain.
By the end, after practicing point shooting, he shot at two 8.5"x11" copy paper targets with 1"x1" blue tape in the centers at 5 yards and shoots into the tape pieces! It was a fun day of shooting and he took the wet paper targets home as he said no one would believe he shot them without using sights.
I think worst day shooting is still better than best day working.
Watching myself make mistakes on video was the biggest realization, acceptance and turning point for me. First time watching I kept going, "What are you doing? Why are you just standing there looking at the locked slide? Mooooove!"
You could wear a beanie next time.
After several failed attempts at setting up shooting session for a coworker due to rain, we finally said "Heck with rain, we will shoot rain or shine!" Well, after a nice breakfast, we went to buy rain suits because it started pouring. I did have portable 10x10 shade tent set up but we essentially ended up shooting several hours in pouring rain.
By the end, after practicing point shooting, he shot at two 8.5"x11" copy paper targets with 1"x1" blue tape in the centers at 5 yards and shoots into the tape pieces! It was a fun day of shooting and he took the wet paper targets home as he said no one would believe he shot them without using sights.
I think worst day shooting is still better than best day working.
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Doublehelix
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DLrocket89
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bds - fun is the name of the game. I'm trying to not have too much fun...I'm in a bowling league, and bowl about 20 mph (most people are 12-14mph). I could do better if I learned to slow down, but I have too much fun where I'm at to give it a lot of effort. The USPSA game is different though, I enjoy high hit factors so I will work to get better here.
My friend and I were shooting two weekends ago with a 5 deg F wind chill. Not rain, but cold.
Waktasz - not much. I was a C-class back 13 years ago and am getting back into it for the first time since then. Yesterday was the second time out with the gun I'll be using (CZ75 SP01) so I was pretty happy with shooting a B occasionally.
For dry fire, I got a uspsa timer app for my phone, was planning on putting two targets at the end of a hall...BEEP, turn double tap each, reload, double tap each. My phone can pick up the clicks of the hammer, so I think that'll be good for getting times. Any other ideas? I live in an apartment unfortunately, so my space to do much is limited...I don't have a basement for example.
Thanks everyone!
My friend and I were shooting two weekends ago with a 5 deg F wind chill. Not rain, but cold.
Waktasz - not much. I was a C-class back 13 years ago and am getting back into it for the first time since then. Yesterday was the second time out with the gun I'll be using (CZ75 SP01) so I was pretty happy with shooting a B occasionally.
For dry fire, I got a uspsa timer app for my phone, was planning on putting two targets at the end of a hall...BEEP, turn double tap each, reload, double tap each. My phone can pick up the clicks of the hammer, so I think that'll be good for getting times. Any other ideas? I live in an apartment unfortunately, so my space to do much is limited...I don't have a basement for example.
Thanks everyone!
LiveLife
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life is GOOD! 
Cool. I use the Android app "Dry Fire Par Timer" and I paid the couple dollars for the pro version.
My favorite feature is that I can set up a drill, a number of reps, and a decrement amount and it will run automatically for me.
For example, say your "comfortable" time for el Prez is 8 seconds. Set the timer to 8 seconds, for 10 reps, decreasing by .1 or .2. After the first 10 reps the program will reset the par time to 7.9 and run for 10 reps, then 7.8, etc. Over time you will improve and you can set the start time lower, and end lower.
For me, I like to set it at 2.2 and do "4 Aces" (draw, shoot 2 , reload, shoot 2, on the same target). I run it for 10 reps then it decreases to 2.1, 2.0...etc. I finish on about 1.6 or 1.7 which is faster than I can go, but I still run it for the full 10 reps to get used to the speed. After that 2 seconds feels like a walk in the park.
DLrocket89
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life is GOOD!
[wanders off topic, but what the heck, I'm the OP, I can do that to my own thread, right?
]True statement! The reason I missed out on this the last decade plus was life happenings, none of it good other than the birth of my daughter. Short version, sister in law killed herself, miscarraige, miscarraige, abortion at 21 weeks because my ex was going to die if we didn't (got to watch my son's heartbeat stop on ultrasound...damn), miscarraige, bankruptcy from the $150k in hospital bills, divorce, 5 years rebuilding my life.
...if I can make it through that, I feel like I can make it through whatever, and it makes days like cold, windy days in muddy cornfields shooting at cardboard seem to be a lot more fun than others think...because at least noone is dying basically. Makes me appreciate being able to do things like this because I want to.
[wanders back to topic]
waktasz - that was exactly the type of advice I was looking for, thank you very much for it!
I'm uploading videos to google drive right now...I'll do some trimming (not sure how to do that) to make them shorter, will then post links. Might be a day or two.
LiveLife
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Holy John Moses Browning!
Well, wife and I traveled to hell and back a few times the past 23 years due to "life's problems" and shooting was one of many things that kept me grounded and stopped me from blowing up.
Well, good to see you back and hope things work out.
Dang!
Well, wife and I traveled to hell and back a few times the past 23 years due to "life's problems" and shooting was one of many things that kept me grounded and stopped me from blowing up.
Well, good to see you back and hope things work out.
Dang!
DLrocket89
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Thanks! Life is definitely on the upswing...getting back into shooting is definitely part of that.
Got the videos to work. First two, the setup was "El Strong and Weak Pres" but I just shot it like El Pres, ie didn't switch to strong hand. Shot this today, it was 30 degrees and windy...took the jacket off for the filming, but my hands were numb by the end. So...grain of salt all around, lol.
Left: https://drive.google.com/open?id=18IHkIo4ZGH2NsFnmAkaxDE3XnL2DtRE8
Right: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r-0aWlgK2E6xdtO-CcRoSQzAO6kdyMDK
Yesterday, had a friend film me shooting "Works for me" - I messed up how I was going to run the stage (missed steel twice, un-necessarily triple-tapped a couple cardboard targets). Here's that video:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jkgPV5tSjCo-XWIyUBwAg5FyBbNG16mq
Observations...
1) I'm shooting a bit slower than normal to prevent hitting the no-shoot. If no no-shoot, I'm .05-.10 seconds/shot faster
2) the Left video is probably the best I've ever done a mag change
3) Yes, I'm fat, and I know losing weight will help everything. It's being worked on.
Any other thoughts?
Dustin
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