Video - Smokeless Powder in 1858 Remington Revolver (Pietta)

[mh2000]

Couldn't the pressure be figured out by lots of complex math? Knowing the weight of the bullet and chamber size and such? I get out my mental blocks when it comes to such things but I'm sure someone could figure it out.

While I'm certainly not smart enough to figure this out myself, a while back, while working as a mechanical engineer, I worked with a company that made explosive actuators, air bag squibs and bazookas and even with all their wiz-bang math and computer programs, they were often off my more than 100%! I don't think it's that easy!

I'd feel more comfortable if this guy tested to failure in statistically significant large numbers.

 

[arcticap]

This short video by Cap and Ball reveals how thin and fragile an (Armi San Paolo?) 1858 Navy cylinder & frame really are, especially when overloaded with smokeless powder.
Even if it were overloaded intentionally, the results illustrate how devastating a mistake can be.
A fitting warning indeed!

 

[PzGren]

Problem is just a slight difference in seating depth of the bullet effects pressures greatly.

And the load density makes a difference, too. His test was rather unscientific and he does not appear very knowledgeable about internal ballistics and reloading.

 

[x_wrench]

i saw this video about 2 weeks prior to finding this thread. i wrote and warned him, which he basically blew off. i hope that is not what happens to one or more of his fingers. i personally believe that smokeless powder could be used in a cap and ball revolver. BUT, it would NEED to be done with MUCH MORE PRECISION AND CARE than this guy is using. in my opinion, Trail Boss might be a better powder choice than Clays. the real problem with burning smokeless powder in a BP firearm, is there is no way for a "home brewer" to measure pressure, or even know how much the firearm could withstand. and increasing the load until the chamber ruptures is a horrible, and imprecise method of testing.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I think we can all agree that this guy is a bonehead. I about choked when I saw how he was measuring his powder. I have never used Clays in anything but having reloaded with Unique for years it makes me cringe to see how careless he is. I can't imagine what the pressure spikes from one chamber to the next would do. It's just a matter of time before he gets his hand and or other body parts damaged.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Actually what we have here is prime example of a) Angels often protect foolish people, and for other folks b) this is why evolution takes soooo long, because not every really stupid, potentially lethal act results in a lethal result with the person taking the action.

Here's How He Survived:
First, he got lucky that he chose Clays, because that's a very popular powder for the folks doing Cowboy Action Shooting, and it and Universal give them the lowest chamber pressures in many cartridge handgun loads.. He merely looked at the label, and thinks "Gee the .44 special is similar"..., well no it's not really, since his handgun is called a .44 but in fact shoots, .451 or .454 projectiles, not .429 projectiles. He references 165 grain bullets, too, BUT, he's launching 138 grain, .451 round ball (you can see it on the bullet box label if you hit pause right), which is lighter than the data he thinks is "close" AND has a lot less friction against the chamber walls than would a 165 grain .451, conical bullet. Perhaps he thinks that since the conversion cylinders for using .45 Colt will work with smokeless "CAS Loads" or black powder, then why not the original cylinder ??

Of course the conversion cylinder instructions tell users to use either specific factory loads, or black powder cartridges. Now those cylinders are not the same steel as that which comes with the repro revolver, but pyrodex loads show they should hold at least 7,600 CUP and probably a bit higher. So what the "talent" in the video did was use a light load, with a lighter than documented bullet which also had less friction, and thus probably came in under 6000 CUP, so succeeded so far, in not blowing himself up..., especially using that really consistent powder measure. Now if he used a different powder, or if some poor slob watched that dumb-arsed video and used the wrong powder, or HECK, if the user was distracted and dumped two loads of the "safe" smokeless powder into a chamber instead of the one.... BOOM ! And the user will have a new nickname of "Lefty".


LD

 

[Deltaboy1984]

No need to do this at all. Penny wise and Pound Foolish.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Youtube removing all kinds of very helpful and informative videos because they are related to guns yet this video which should be banned is still up?

 

[Tommygunn]

Youtube removing all kinds of very helpful and informative videos because they are related to guns yet this video which should be banned is still up?

IT'S A PLOT! ..........

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Could be a way of chlorinating the gene pool.

 

[Snidely70431]

This short video by Cap and Ball reveals how thin and fragile an (Armi San Paolo?) 1858 Navy cylinder & frame really are, especially when overloaded with smokeless powder.
Even if it were overloaded intentionally, the results illustrate how devastating a mistake can be.
A fitting warning indeed!

Key words: Overloaded Intentionally. Guys, ANYTHING can be blown up if you really try. Well, maybe not a Pattern 1914 Enfield. Just fill a rifle case with Bullseye.

 

[Snidely70431]

Actually what we have here is prime example of a) Angels often protect foolish people, and for other folks b) this is why evolution takes soooo long, because not every really stupid, potentially lethal act results in a lethal result with the person taking the action.

Here's How He Survived:
First, he got lucky that he chose Clays, because that's a very popular powder for the folks doing Cowboy Action Shooting, and it and Universal give them the lowest chamber pressures in many cartridge handgun loads.. He merely looked at the label, and thinks "Gee the .44 special is similar"..., well no it's not really, since his handgun is called a .44 but in fact shoots, .451 or .454 projectiles, not .429 projectiles. He references 165 grain bullets, too, BUT, he's launching 138 grain, .451 round ball (you can see it on the bullet box label if you hit pause right), which is lighter than the data he thinks is "close" AND has a lot less friction against the chamber walls than would a 165 grain .451, conical bullet. Perhaps he thinks that since the conversion cylinders for using .45 Colt will work with smokeless "CAS Loads" or black powder, then why not the original cylinder ??

Of course the conversion cylinder instructions tell users to use either specific factory loads, or black powder cartridges. Now those cylinders are not the same steel as that which comes with the repro revolver, but pyrodex loads show they should hold at least 7,600 CUP and probably a bit higher. So what the "talent" in the video did was use a light load, with a lighter than documented bullet which also had less friction, and thus probably came in under 6000 CUP, so succeeded so far, in not blowing himself up..., especially using that really consistent powder measure. Now if he used a different powder, or if some poor slob watched that dumb-arsed video and used the wrong powder, or HECK, if the user was distracted and dumped two loads of the "safe" smokeless powder into a chamber instead of the one.... BOOM ! And the user will have a new nickname of "Lefty".


LD

So, if you do not feel safe loading any smokeless powder in a BP revolver, don't do it. Guys are going to experiment. If nobody tried building flying machines we would all be on the ground.

 

[grter]

Yes the experiment and if it doesn't work you try something else until you achieve what has never been done before.

The problem is it's not an experiment it's reinventing the wheel. I't's a well known fact that smokeless powders are not safe to use in soft mild steel muzzleloaders designed to use lower pressure black powder.

It is well established from the old days when it was invented by people that have tried it in their black powder rated guns, there were even duplex black powder smokeless loads. The practice quickly lost popularity after enough guns blew up. Even back then they figured out fast that it wasn't a good idea. Today with all this technology it is now known exactly why it's a really bad idea.

So just have a look at the archives of wisdom that have been gathered over all these years it's just about all been done and documented so you don't have to suffer the school of hard knocks.

It's a stunt not an experiment. I would consider it more along the lines of gambling with ones own or even others body parts or life

 

[Snidely70431]

I wish the maker of this video good luck. He is going to need it. Not so much that he is experimenting with smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, it is his cavalier attitude to measuring smokeless powder. 2/3 of a 1/4 teaspoon? Really? Some smokeless powder loads are measured in tenths of a grain, which is just a couple of powder flakes. Digital scales are really inexpensive and measuring by weight just makes a lot more sense.

 

[PapaG]

Where do people get the idea Trail Boss is a low pressure powder. It is smokeless, plain and simple. It is made extra bulky mainly to prevent double or triple charging in big cases like the.44 and .45s as used in CAS.

 

[robhof]

He has NO idea what the pressure curve is or even what the pressure is. Takes more than a few shots to figure that out. Should get a Bill Engvall sign to hang around his neck "I'm STUPID"

I do NOT advocate his method, but I do have cartridge conversions for my ROA's and do shoot with smokeless powder, but loaded with precisely measured/weighed loads to cowboy action specs, have done so for over 12 yrs with no problem. Many of the commercial 45 Colt loads rated for cowboy action are loaded with smokeless!

 

[PapaG]

I do NOT advocate his method, but I do have cartridge conversions for my ROA's and do shoot with smokeless powder, but loaded with precisely measured/weighed loads to cowboy action specs, have done so for over 12 yrs with no problem. Many of the commercial 45 Colt loads rated for cowboy action are loaded with smokeless!

I, too, have a ROA and shoot light smokeless loads as per the instructions that came with the Howells conversion cylinder. I use a 200 grain button nose swc and a proper charge of Unique. Prints almost exactly to same poa as the 28 fffg, corn meal, felt wad, .457 ball load I have used since 1973. Love it.

 

[PapaG]

Been shoot in black since 1966. Keg a year for a few. Rifle, pistol, shotguns. Held a record or two at local, state, and national level. Built 13 and none from a kit. Shot black powder cartridge at several levels. Made moulds, false muzzle, and co built a drilling and rifling machine. All that said, I have only used smokeless in a bp arm when shooting bp cartridge arms. Per the rules, ten per cent max as a priming charge. Details, 45-70 smokeless action rolling block, five grains DuPont bulk shotgun smokeless (volume for volume substitute for black), 55 ffg DuPont and a breech seated 385 grain Lyman 457124 as cast bullet.
I will never use smokeless for a propellant in a gun designed for black powder. I've counseled many who thought a "booster" charge of Red dot or bullseye would perk up their TC Hawken. Most listened to reason. It is stupid, ill advised, and .........I give up. Ignorant can be cured with education, stupid is forever.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Where do people get the idea Trail Boss is a low pressure powder. It is smokeless, plain and simple. It is made extra bulky mainly to prevent double or triple charging in big cases like the.44 and .45s as used in CAS.

I don't know where that myth comes from but I've heard it a lot. If you look at comparable loading data Trail Boss usually has the higher pressures. As you say it's only advantage to anything is it's bulky nature to fill the old BP cases more. That's the only reason I use it at all.

 

[Starter52]

Arcticap, an excellent and thought provoking video. Thanks for the link.

 

[Joe Bleaux]

Um, what is the point in this "experiment?" The only seemingly semi-rational reason is to see if the firearm may not blow up, presumably to use smokeless in something not designed to use it in a dire emergency. Hell, why not play around to see how much C4 can be used? Why not get a drill press and ream out the cylinder to hold a metallic cartridge and kludge on a firing pin? Or maybe, just maybe, why not use things within the design limits. This isn't "wildcatting" within reasonable parameters or testing for limits with proper methods and safeguards, it is dangerous playing around. It is not what responsible gun owners do.

 

[Erwan]

In fact and after reading I think that certain persons here like where I live think often "Why not"...

Don't forget that the Italian production is made with low grade steels, something like a kind of improved concrete reinforcement steel. So the steel like a C40 will be good enough for the BP and better than the original steel but bad for a smokeless powder.

My ROA is't in this kind of steel and can (perhaps) works with some (soft/slow) smokeless powders but it is't a made in Italy and made with a good steel...

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

.

The poor man, he may mean well but it’s still a pitiful vid. Good quote: 2/3 of a 1/4 teaspoon - “... reasonably accurate, I think“. Shoots at a rock from ten feet, misses. No adjustable powder measure. He could get people hurt, if he hasn’t already. The fellow just does not inspire confidence.