Video: Struggle Over Gun Nearly Gets Man Killed

[psyopspec]

In a sentence: A man at a gas station has his gun snatched and is only spared by the attacker's decision not to shoot him.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=626_1439828448

Lessons and considerations:

MINDSET–situational awareness was severely lacking. Not that we should walk around pinging in combat mode at all times and in all places, but establishments with bullet proof glass are a contextual clue that caution is warranted.

SKILLSET–while an effort was made to retain the weapon, it appeared haphazard. Rhetorically, or for discussion, what is your plan in the event of an attempted weapon snatch; that is, what level of training will you automatically default to if you find yourself in this situation? What techniques will you use to retain your weapon in its holster, or in your hand?

TOOLSET–carrying small of the back remains a poor choice for a variety of reasons. Consider what other tools can be used with techniques [skillset] to keep control of the weapon; knife, OC spray, empty hand, etc.

IMO, events like this one help to make the case for AIWB; while there is no substitute for situational awareness and early warning, having the gun constantly in one's peripheral vision and in a place of control where the arms and hands can more naturally defend both body and weapon can be highly beneficial. Food for thought.

 

[Hondo 60]

Weapon snatching - This is the reason I pocket carry.
It's extremely unlikely that someone would reach in my pants pocket to grab my gun.

Once I have it out, if they're close enough to grab, I'm close enough to stomp on their foot above the arch.
I wear a brace with 2 steel rods on the outside.
Believe me it'll hurt them enough that they'll, at least momentarily, be side tracked.

I don't use the pictured holster, I have a Galco Pocket Holster

 

[lemaymiami]

Weapons retention is extremely important for anyone choosing to carry a firearm, period.... In my opinion it's probably the weakest point in most folks' skillset.

There's a particularly dangerous type of offender that rarely carries a weapon... he's planning on taking yours to start any problems.

 

[gspn]

Thanks for posting this. Was the perp going for the guys wallet at first? It looked like the plan was to just box a smaller guy into a corner and strong arm his wallet away from him.

I need to do some serious thinking about weapon retention.

I'm also considering putting a claymore in the small of my back to deal with anyone on my six.

 

[lemaymiami]

FYI for anyone considering weapons retention training.... To illustrate just how important this is you might want to remember that I had a few young officer/trainers that were so skilled at weapons stealing that they could take almost any officer's weapon from them face to face, from the rear or the side... during training -all being trained were carrying their normal weapons in first rate "security holsters" in uniform -and expecting the attempt (all weapons unloaded -verified by both student and instructor before exercises began). The idea was to demonstrate just how vulnerable even an experienced officer was to this sort of maneuver... all of them paid pretty close attention to the retention training after it was shown just how vulnerable they were....

This was done years ago (early nineties) when I was responsible for training on a small (100 sworn department) so the state of the art both in tactics and equipment has probably advanced to some degree -but the danger remains for anyone, officer or citizen that's carrying a firearm....

 

[murf]

lemaymiami,

so, what is the best way to carry your concealed weapon in this case? appendix?

murf

 

[IlikeSA]

His mistake was going into a stop-n-rob in a bad part of town and not paying attention. Notice the glass around the cashier area.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Weapons retention is extremely important for anyone choosing to carry a firearm, period.... In my opinion it's probably the weakest point in most folks' skillset.

There's a particularly dangerous type of offender that rarely carries a weapon... he's planning on taking yours to start any problems.

In the video the attacker looks much more skilled than the concealed carrier, he knows exactly how to pin him down etc.

 

[bikerdoc]

Psyopspec makes a good point and gives us a starting point for this discusion.
Situational awareness, coupled with mindset, skillset, toolset, should be the primary focus along with ongoing training of all ccw holders.
So many fails,
Skippy green shirt had no clue where he was or who was behind him.(SA)
His weapon printed.
Small of the back is imo the most vunerable carry position for retention.
While grappling on the floor geen shirt had several openings to kick plaid jacket in the head
He did not have, or at least appears not to have a retention knive, nor the training or skill to deploy it.

There is no one size fits all, school solution here but rather a bunch concepts that goes beyond buying the the latest plastic fanfastic and sticking it in your belt. Each one of us must read, study, and train, for any such number of incidents. Ayoob, Smith, Farhnam and the late Paul Gomez spent a lifetime trying to teach specific techniques but the most sucessful students get that it all starts with situational analysis.
Simply approaching and standing at a 45° angle at that counter he would have seen the bad guy. Right side carry, would have eliminated the printing and viewing of the imprint. Once engaged, what is plan B?
so many lessons to be learned, practiced and improved upon.

 

[basicblur]

Ran across this one this morning - another reminder of how quickly things can go south.

Notice at the 35 second mark where the lead officer shoves a potential weapon out of the way, although it could have been shoved a little farther?
https://www.full30.com/video/dc1c563aa6b106f252dfe6a9d91ffd94?ref=F530fb

 

[SKILCZ]

In the original video, did the perp get away with the green shirt guy's gun, or did his have his own gun? Whose gun was it that the perp went for on the floor before running out?

 

[psyopspec]

@gspn

Was the perp going for the guys wallet at first?

I hadn't thought of that, and it's a good question. His weapon is printing, but it doesn't look like it becomes a snatch until after the action has started. I think all we can readily tell from the video is that an assault took place; the targeted material (wallet or gun) that the perp was going for isn't clear.

@SKILCZ

In the original video, did the perp get away with the green shirt guy's gun, or did his have his own gun?

I think he made off with green shirt's gun. If he had his own, he ostensibly would have drawn it early in the encounter.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I'm a big fan of IWB and appendix carry.

The J frame holster there I've used for over 20 years. Still works perfect. Very fast and very secure.

And even that Glock 26 there works fine in the same position.

And yes folks learn to defend yourself with hands and feet. Not just a few moves but spend some real time in the dojo or gym.

I 'only' have 35 years of TKD, Krav Maga, judo, boxing, and JKD. Plus training with such as SouthNarc. Keeps me off the streets.

Deaf

 

[Partizanai]

I agree on your approach...

Deaf Smith- I agree completely with your assessment. I believe that
most attackers are rather "ill prepared" for someone to do anything other
than reflex or grapple.
To me....a single quick, powerful and decisive strike usually resolves such
issues very quickly indeed. I am too old (and not inclined to flight..) but, I
am able to defend myself well.
Attackers to me are mostly cowards anyway. They are like "school yard
bullies" looking for someone to pick on vs. an actually fight. Unlike the
Hollywood movie versions; these extremely brief encounters are usually
resolved in less than 15 seconds total!
With good training and a little courage that's not a lot of stamina required
time- is it?
P

 

[lemaymiami]

Been working the past few days so this is my first chance to contribute again....

I don't think there's any "best carry" for your personal sidearm... Everyone has to carry in the manner that's comfortable for them. Remember as well that if your weapon is easy to reach and draw for you - it's easy for an opponent if they know how to take it from you....

For every benefit you get there are always drawbacks, though, and I consider a "rear carry" as the least desirable for weapons retention if it comes down to it.... Here are a few things to consider about weapons retention. First, keep your weapon in a good quality holster that's properly secured. Second, concealment is a major factor in weapons retention (no one's going to try to snatch what they don't know about.....). If your sidearm is properly concealed you have the advantage of reaching for it (if necessary) or staying out of the action by simply not revealing that you're armed.... That's probably the best reason to do whatever you can so that your weapon isn't "printing" and showing everyone around you that you have a gun if they want to take it.... and have the moxy.

As already noted situational awareness is life itself if there's a potential threat in the vicinity. Your next level of defense is simple distance - proximity is your first danger. Anyone that's going to try to take your weapon has to move in close to do so -keeping a distance from any possible opponent is key -before any bad stuff happens. If I have someone near me that I'm doubtful of.... my first tactic is subtle and won't be noticed... I simply turn so that my "weapons side" is away from whoever I'm not comfortable with.... That turn is non-threatening but effective since it not only makes it harder to reach for a possible opponent but also clears your weapon so that it can be reached without interference if needed. If it's more than one person you're facing then absolutely keep your distance -even stepping back a bit if necessary to maintain distance between you and possible opponents....

I will defer talking about how to actually respond to an attempted weapons grab. You're far better off to get properly trained in the hands on techniques that will allow you to keep control of your weapon by a qualified instructor. These techniques aren't high level at all -they're a mix of simple maneuvers that can save your weapon (and potentially your life).

This whole topic is why I'm not a fan of open carry at all (unless you're out in the field away from other people) since open carry makes it just too easy for someone to snatch your weapon.... It's not an accident that so many police officers are killed with their own weapons every year... In the years when I actively tracked those stats (every police department gets yearly stats from Justice analyzing officer killings....) about one third of all cops killed were shot by their own weapons (my era was from 1973 to 1995). I doubt that this has changed since I retired out. The gun every officer carries is a greater threat to him/her than anything else on the job, period.

 

[Tirod]

What the average male has working against him is the societal training to escalate force as needed, only. It's the same as LEO - "only meet force with equivalent force."

So, it's impolite to raise the stakes to triple dog dare because it's considered a faux pas and label you a cowardly aggressor. We see the same for cops, display a knife, well, you really can't justifiably shoot the citizen dead on sight. It's done as a departmental coverup, but the pro's would say that a few important steps were left out.

So we approach a sudden rumble with some cautions thrown at us and our general mindset is usually a lower security level than the perps - which is exactly what he wants.

We don't use lethal force up front the first strike.

Are we handicapping ourselves when our carry gun makes it a lethal threat situation in the first place? Carrying a loaded weapon and then being targeted for our cash means we need to react decisively up front - the video points out that a grappling situation that may not have been for the gun WiLL be as soon as the perp discovers it, and his first attempt to snatch it IS a lethal threat to us.

Anyone who carries a gun for protection should be well versed in empty hand combatives at the level of physical utility they can employ. From there, a backup weapon that is readily at hand to respond to a gun grapple should be accessible.

I don't know how or where you would do it - but that long "school yard" wrestling match employed few counterblows or used the attackers soft targets as a weapon against him. Those first few seconds should have seen some disabling strikes to the eyes, the legs used to entrap the attacker. Curling into the fetal position simply wasn't good enough.

My initial reaction is that a small blade used to the face would be appropriate. I don't see assaults like this as needing to conform to schoolyard etiquette. "He went for my gun" is considered more than enough justification.

The video is a good example of exactly how we bottle up our responses when in fact our acceptance to wear a firearm means we are the escalation of force where we don't want to be. We have to accept that and be able to deal with it. Instead of being the quiet hero type we need to switch gears and be the baddest dude in the valley. Rules only get in the way at that point.

I'm reminded again of the saying, "men sleep peacefully in their bed at night because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf."

Consider very carefully which you prefer to be.

 

[Fred Fuller]

A session of ECQC with Southnarc would have done Mr. Green Shirt a world of good...

The text at the LiveLeak post includes the following:


The complainant, who was armed and is licensed to carry, fought off the offender, however, while doing so, his firearm fell from his hip allowing the suspect to gain control of it. As the two struggled over the firearm, the suspect fired one shot towards the complainant missing him before fleeing the store with the complainant chasing the suspect losing sight of him.

It appears that it was the assailant's poor shooting that ultimately saved his victim... if you are fighting for your gun, you are fighting for your LIFE ... don't forget this.

 

[Tirod]

Thank you for that Fred as the video is less than forthcoming on the event.

I see a lot of stuff to think over in terms of "lessons learned" here. As far as making a case for AIWB it goes for those with the abs who can. In this specific circumstance a shoulder holster could have impeded having the weapon taken and accommodated a combatives response.

 

[Fred Fuller]

See Tam at

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2015/08/lose-your-illusions.html

and

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-stuff-that-fills-my-head-at-0130.html

Craig (Southnarc) used to preface his ECQC training with a reference to its utility "WHEN your awareness fails." Not if - when. None of us can be 100% aware, 100% of the time.

What will you do if you get jumped when you are not 'switched on?'

 

[Tirod]

Pretty much exactly what can be seen in the video - despite the indicators this wasn't a quiet gas station in the middle of the night, the "victim" still wasn't switched on. He let someone approach from behind and had very little in a defensive response.

Very few of us walk about ready for action - the human body simply can't perpetuate that condition every waking moment. Which is why most will abstain from going into that situation - they prefer to stay away from having to constantly be aware of danger all around them.

We limit our hours of doing business regardless of what hours someone might be open, and if things seem all too sketchy, we move - to a neighborhood where things don't seem to happen that much.

Not that many people fill out job apps and check off they are available for work every day 24/7. If they can show the work history - they limit it to 8-5 M - F. No way do they look for jobs that require bulletproof glass and a front seat to muggings.

It's not so much that we will eventually drop our guard - it's more like the rare times we actually raise our alertness levels. All because we police ourselves and don't be at the wrong time or place.

This is why so many scoff that anyone would "need" a gun in the first place, and having a back up weapon, a plan on how to use it, and training, too? Seems like you are looking for trouble.

Mr. Green Shirt may well have simply been in exigent circumstances - no intent to be there in the first place, but there he was. He had a wallet - he was accosted - there was a weapon a sharp mugger could take advantage of - and we have a wrestling match on the floor.

I've heard odds it will only happen once in a lifetime, which is how most assess the risk - they will worry about it later. BUT - if you choose to carry, to keep "it" from happening, then you need to have the backup plan and weapon, too. As the video shows - the gun wasn't an answer so much as something that may have elevated the situation further. Guns do that.

If someone is going for your cash, and you wear some form of IWB gun, then having it discovered in a robbery attempt as shown means dealing with it. We have a strong fashion now to wear semi duty guns in belt holsters of some sort - but that is only raising the odds of it's discovery. What's good for a professional is not necessarily what's best for the civilian on the street. On the other hand, the professional approach to having a backup weapon for grappling is being ignored - and we even let our representatives legislate against certain ones because of their Condition White mind set.

In MO I can carry a 4" liner lock daily with almost no interference - but a two inch push dagger is considered "eeeeevil" and must be carried openly, and only by CCW/LEO/MIL, and the last two only on duty. That's a subtle but large improvement from the past, where it would likely get you charged, or the weapon added to the officers personal collection.

A HAK or CRKT Folts Tanto is legal concealed - along with, and up to, an AR15 pistol with 30 round mag as long as it's under 26" from buffer tube to the end of the muzzle. A Gerber Uppercut? OMG.

Discussion of their employment and use is pretty limited on the net. "We don't talk about the use of illegal weapons" pretty much covers it. Ok. But it's purely a legal distinction imposed by a class of people who we elect to represent us. It's a statuatory situation, not a moral one. Like Ruger's slogan, "Arms makers for responsible citizens." It really makes no difference to the responsible citizen - they only use weapons legally. What they are shouldn't be restricted to a narrow view of a certain class or ethnicity.

Goes to the NY state rep who's trying to outlaw machetes. It's very definitely an ethnic and class based bias.

At the least keep a Sharpy in your shirt pocket - it does make a good blunt weapon. As do many flashlights - which is the exact design intent of the original 2 x AA Maglite. It was a self defense weapon for travelers, along with a training guide for those who were aware. We've upgraded the bezel for even more striking impact on tactical lights now.

What DO each of us have as a plan of counter attack? It's not if, it is when, and it will likely happen we have put ourselves in a situation where we won't elevate our awareness and security.

As some who frequent Twin Peaks restaurants in Waco, Texas have discovered. I'm still amazed there isn't a righteously innocent CCW carrier who was swept up in that situation. It's Waco, right? Not everyone knows where or can get out the back door.

 

[mope540]

THE perfect reason not to open carry

(yeah, i know..he wasn't open carrying)

 

[Deaf Smith]

THE perfect reason not to open carry

(yeah, i know..he wasn't open carrying)

Well no. If one has a retention holster plus tactical awareness and handgun retention training, I can see OC as an alternative.

But most will not do that.

Deaf

 

[david58]

Situational awareness is the key. THE key.

Mongo is bigger, stronger, and quicker than I am. If he wants my gun, he will likely get it. So I need to see him coming and go the other way.

Took a retention class. Ended up with major damage to my shoulder, surgery, and a year of rehab.

That taught me that I am best to watch watch watch. And make distance. And not print, and avoid places where trouble lives.

Just me, ymmv.

D

 

[old lady new shooter]

As an old lady with some physical issues, for me situational awareness is #1 too.

 

[old lady new shooter]

"What DO each of us have as a plan of counter attack? It's not if, it is when, and it will likely happen we have put ourselves in a situation where we won't elevate our awareness and security."

Any suggestions for counter-attack methods for a person who would be physically vastly outmatched in a situation that gets up close and personal?