Violating company policy WRT to firearms

[Trunk Monkey]

The question of carrying an illicit weapon on company time came up in another thread and rather than hijack that thread I thought I’d start this one.

In my opinion, if I am offered a position with a company in which carrying a firearm on the clock is expressly forbidden and I take that position I am agreeing to be bound by the company’s conditions of employment.

Essentially, I am giving my word that I will not carry a firearm on company time.

Regardless of the company’s stance or whether or not my safety is their prime concern, I don’t believe I, having given my word to the contrary, can carry a firearm on company time and claim the moral high ground.

Any opposing views?

 

[dprice3844444]

guess who's gonna get fired and have no recourse?

 

[mnrivrat]

guess who's gonna get fired and have no recourse?

The person who carries against company policy .

 

[Sam1911]

To whom, or by what standard are you "claiming the moral high ground?" As the company really doesn't care about your moral compunctions -- only compliance with policy -- the morality of it is just between you and yourself. If you consider signing an employment agreement a solemn pledge that you bind yourself to follow, then you are breaking trust and harming yourself if you do.

A more realpolitik view of how contracts work and how legal documents are machines or instruments to be played by the lawyers of the parties involved might produce a different view of the matter.

Personally, I would NEVER carry at work if I couldn't accept the repercussions of being discovered. Beyond that, the question would be irrelevant.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Again, if I accept the position knowing that carrying a firearm on the clock is verboten I am agreeing to be bound by that rule. If I don’t agree to be bound by that rule I don’t accept the position.

Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[Sam1911]

Is that really so hard to understand?

Are you asking for opinions, or telling us what to think?

[EDIT: Fair enough...I did ask a question, though I intended it to be rhetorical in nature.]

 

[MICHAEL T]

I always carried at work . I can find another job. Only have one life. I was home on medical leave .When guy come in killed 2 and wounded 2 more where I worked . If I had been working or another person in office been armed, might have ended faster.
Their dead, many lives ruined and he got life. Big deal firing squad been better

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Do what you feel is best for you, so long as you are aware of the possible consequences, and accept them.

The company's first allegiance is to itself. It makes those policies out of self-interest. Whether insurance costs will be too high, bad PR for a shooting on site, guns in the hands of employees clashing with their public image, etc. A "no guns" policy makes one point very clear: "We, the company, hold our own interests above all else, including your life".

That's fine. They can choose to act that way if they wish. You have a few options in response with corresponding outcomes for you.

-Don't accept the job. You don't get paid, but you also assume no risk of getting fire or prosecuted.

-Accept the job and don't carry. You do get paid but you place your own life in the hands of whoever may seek to take it.

-Accept the job and carry anyways. You get paid, get a better chance to preserve your own life if the need arises, but you take upon you the risk of getting fired or prosecuted legally if you are caught or involved in a shooting.

I don't care which one you pick, just accept the full outcome of your choice. I will not tell someone "a pledge to follow company policy is worth more than your life". A rule has not yet been written that I would value following over keeping myself alive, and I won't begrudge anyone for thinking the same. The day may come where you get found out, fired or even prosecuted. But you'll be alive.

 

[Mrcymstr]

Since your asking about morality. I see a job as a transaction, I give you X you give me Y, not a contract , you must do X because I gave you Y. With that said I see no moral issue (ignoring risk to your job and legal issues) with carrying at work.

 

[marksman13]

Or a fourth option, seek out an employer that cares about your rights and personal safety. I realize that this is not often possible, but in my past three jobs, my boss always gave me the green light to carry discreetly and in my current job, openly if I so choose. I work for a firearms dealership now, so it's a little different situation than many people's but I'm extremely happy with it.

It's good to know that your boss cares about your safety.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Or a fourth option, seek out an employer that cares about your rights and personal safety

If that was a response to what I wrote, that would actually fall under the first "don't accept the job" option.

 

[3KillerBs]

When I was hired my employer had no policy about weapons. Somewhat over a year later the factory's owners adopted a "no weapons" policy. Which is absolutely ridiculous since we have multiple objects within arms reach than can be used as improvised weapons and use things such as box cutters and razor-sharp thread snips in our daily work.

Considering that I used to work 15 feet from a woman who carried her protection order on her body because her crazy ex had come to previous workplaces to make trouble, that my husband owns a collections agency and has had his family threatened by debtors, that I argue politics on the internet under another name and have gotten death threats, that I currently work with a woman who is involved in a nasty child custody dispute with accusations of child abuse from both sides and a guy involved who has both made threats and violated the restraining order against him, and that the "no weapons" policy did not prevent a guy who was mad about being fired from putting a manager into the ICU with a piece of pipe that had been lying nearby I have continued to carry at work.

If I'm caught they have the right to fire me and I will go quietly when asked. But in addition to the other things I mentioned, I live half an hour from the NC nursing home shooting scene. If someone comes in that way I want something more effective than a pair of thread snips with a mere 1.5" of blade, razor-sharp though they be, to use against him.

 

[brboyer]

Any opposing views?

Yep.
The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are a misguided attempt to reduce the company's liability. I feel no moral compunction ignoring such a policy when it interferes with my ability to defend myself in whatever manner/method I choose. I find such policies immoral.

My life/well-being is far more important than the minute possibility of increased insurance premiums.

As with any company policy, I fully understand the consequences of violation.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

To me, the question boils down to what is your word worth.

Ragnar, you have admitted that you'll lie to your employer about carrying if it suits you, what else will you lie about?

 

[jeepnik]

I am so glad I work for myself.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Ragnar, you have admitted that you'll lie to your employer about carrying if it suits you, what else will you lie about?

If you're insinuating something, come out and say it.

To me, the question boils down to what is your word worth.

In some instances, it could be worth my life. In some, it's not. When I swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, it was worth my life and still is. I swore no such oath to Domino's pizza when I worked for them. The United States is worth defending with my life. Your dinner is not.

What I am or am not willing to risk my life or freedom for is up to me. You seem to be trying to make this into a "two camp" issue. Either you're a man of honor who would never lie in any circumstance, and would sacrifice your life because by damn you signed an employment contract and your word is your life....or you're a villain who if willing to be dishonest in one instance you must be dishonest in all. Sorry, but that's not reality. The things I will risk my life and freedom for are my choice. To save other lives? Yes. To protect the US? Yes. To complete an employment agreement for $8.00 an hour? No. I choose to draw the line where I feel my values lie. You can draw your own line. The fact that they may be in different places does not make any who disagree with you into some sort of villain.

 

[Big Boy]

Ragnar, you have admitted that you'll lie to your employer about carrying if it suits you, what else will you lie about?

Don't be an idiotic troll acting like you've never lied before in your life.

That'd be like saying "you've shot and killed a deer before, obviously you are a killer"

Just because once I ran across the street to catch the ice cream truck doesn't make me a runner.

 

[brboyer]

what else will you lie about?

Can I answer that one?

Honey, does this dress make my butt look big?

Isn't she the cutest baby you've ever seen?

Sir, are there any guns or drugs in the car?

And so on......

 

[wrs840]

The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are a misguided attempt to reduce the company's liability.

Bingo. ...though not really "misguided".

I know quite a few employers that really wanted the NC Legislature to outlaw employer-imposed prohibitions against work-carry when it came up in our recent revamp of firearms laws, in order to relieve them from the liability exposure that made them listen to lawyers and put the prohibition into company policy in the first place. The corporation has to concern itself corporate viability (self-preservation) first and foremost, and removing liability exposure wherever possible is a big part of that.

 

[writerinmo]

This thread smells of troll for some reason...maybe the fact that the scenario is just thrown out, and then random comments made attacking people's responses... anyways, I'm taking my ball and going home. What people decide as far as their "moral high grounds" is not for either you or myself to approve or condemn as far as protecting themselves while at work. Personally, I carried at work, but I didn't advertise it. I came to work, I did my job, the fact that I carried a concealed weapon while doing so was no one's business but my own in my opinion. I never went and told anyone "No, I'm not carrying a weapon", but then again no one ever asked.

 

[marksman13]

Ragnar, I wasn't arguing against you. Not taking the job does not equate to seeking out employment with a company more freedom friendly. It could equate to sitting at home doing nothing because the employer you wanted to work for wouldn't let you carry at work. I realize that argument is nitpicky and a bit trivial though.

Trunk Monkey, questioning Ragnar's honor is a bit below the belt don't you think? The man has simply stated that his life (and quite possibly the lives of others) means more to him than a company's policy. I would wager that Ragnar is more than trustworthy. In fact, A person like Ragnar is who I want on my side when the chips are down, someone who can adapt, improvise and overcome.

 

[wyohome]

The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are a misguided attempt to reduce the company's liability

.
I don't look at it as misguided, they have their ass to cover, I have mine. In 45 years of working for others, I have never been asked if I was carrying.

 

[oneounceload]

Obviously, no one here so far works for a power utility at a power plant, especially a nuclear one. Carrying at work is illegal - a felony, even the laws allowing a gun in the parking lot are suspended. If caught, you go to the federal pen and lose your gun rights forever

Still worth the risk of acting illegally?

Don't like the rules of the job, don't take it. Most employers now run credit checks, background checks and all sorts of investigations into your background before hiring and lying on employment apps or going against the signed employee handbook rules are grounds for dismissal and can come back to haunt you down the road

 

[Agsalaska]

Trunk Monkey, as you probably know from the last thread, I absolutely agree with you. If you cannot meet the terms of employment by the employer than you should not accept the position.

 

[brboyer]

Bingo. ...though not really "misguided".

.
I don't look at it as misguided, they have their ass to cover, I have mine. In 45 years of working for others, I have never been asked if I was carrying.

Perhaps "misguided" was not the proper term.

How about 'The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are the result of an overly optimistic expectation in liability reduction."