Virginia open carry quesiton (VCDL)

[oda226]

I am former LE and just got my CCW. (I've been out of the country for 15 years.)

I couldn't believe it when I was informed of the Resturant prohibition for CCW. This law is absurd and needs to be revoked!

I do not like to OC anywhere, but if I go to a local eatery that serves alcohol, I ask for a booth and sit with my weapon towards the wall and ask the waitress if the establishment serves alcohol. When she says yes, I take off my coat and OC but I remain discreet.

I keep my coat off until I pay my bill and then put my coat back on as I exit the establishment, but before I get up from the table. I don't want or need any attention from the owner or the local PD.

 

[tinygnat219]

Hmmm, discreet OC. How interesting.

Good on you for finding something that works!

 

[oda226]

Maybe we just discovered a new term: "Discrete OC"! LOL!.

The reason I do this is two-fold:1. I want to comply with all Virginia laws about CCW and 2. I do not want to draw obvious attention to myself from the bad guys, the good guys or from those that are on the political left.

There will be those that would say, "The moment you carry concealed in a restaurant you have violated the law." That would be true if an ABC license was clearly posted at the entrance, but how many restaurants post their ABC licenses at the front door? Not many.

I cannot confirm that the establishment has an ABC license until I ask a member of the staff. The moment he or she confirms the ABC status of the establishment, I immediately remove my coat (remember I sit weapon side to the wall) and now I am in "Discreet Open Carry".

Everytime I return to the place, once seated, I ask if the establishment still has an ABC License (ABC status CAN CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE IN VIRGINIA) and if the answer is in the affirmative, I immediately take off my coat and now I am in Discreet OC. Totally legal.

If I'm confronted as I'm walking towards the door with my coat on, I say that I've been openly carrying a weapon for the past X number of minutes/ hours and I put my coat on because I am leaving and it is cold/ raining/ too sunny outside. Again totally legal and more importantly: DEFENSIBLE IN COURT.

I think that it is absurd that good-honest citizens (and in my case former LE) have to find legal technicalities to be in a position to defend themselves in the gravest extreme and at the same time use these technicalities to NOT ALARM the SHEEPLE that may be in the same room with us! This law needs to be recinded! All Virginia CCW's get out and get politically active! Tell your State House Representative to vote to repaeal this law!

 

[chris in va]

Oda, they did 'modify' the law. If Gov Kaine approves, you can conceal but now have to notify management you're carrying.

 

[Blackfork]

Hats off to Patriots.

..and folks who are willing to take a stand. We need open carry in Texas as well.

 

[oda226]

Chris,
I know that it has passed the State Congress, but I doubt that Caine will sign it into law. If he does, it is interesting to note that there are no criminal penalties for NOT notifying restaurant management...only for drinking in that establishment while carrying a weapon. (I think the penalties should be stricter and made a Class 1 Misdemeanor for carrying a weapon under the influence of any intoxicant).

So... if there are no criminal penalties for NOT declaring you are CCW, all the management of the establishment can do is ask you to leave, which I will gladly do.

 

[longwatch]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there is no penalty for not informing. It may well be a class 1 misdemeanor, not abiding by the conditions of the permit nullifies it.

 

[marshaul]

Believe me, I'd *much* rather open carry freely such as in AZ than have to tuck this thing under a jacket or shirt. But as I see it, open carry is more for the times when your shirt rides up and exposes your handle than it is to make everyone's eyes pop out and start fidgeting.

As someone who OCs every day, I can assure you that open carry is a great way to exercise your rights without having to submit to being licensed to do so. For me it is the norm.

I think what you might find most surprising is what a "normal" thing it can be. I've carried in malls, in movie theaters, I carry to the bank; I carry literally everywhere I go (unless I plan to drink alcohol ). I even wore my gun while having a cavity filled a couple weeks back. People don't stare and fidget; if I get any reaction at all it's more along the lines of employees going out of their way to be helpful and people being extremely polite to me (of course I am always extremely friendly & polite myself when I am OCing). I've had many people ask me about my license--of course I have none--or the law in Virginia, and when I take the time to explain the way things are I invariably get a positive reaction. I have also had people approach to to tell me that they like my 1911, or that they support OC, or even just say "cool gun!" I've had numerous such positive encounters.

In fact, just the other day I went into a bar (nightclub?) where I had "left" my debit card two nights before, and since it was early on a Monday evening and the place was mostly empty I didn't bother to leave my gun in the car. As I stood at the bar waiting for the bartender to locate my forgotten card, a young lady approached me. I think our conversation went something like this:

"Hey, excuse me...."
"Yes?"
"Is that a gun?"
"....."
"That is so awesome. Can I see it?"
"I'm sorry miss, but I'm afraid I can't let you handle it. At least, not in public. You can look all you want, though."
"Oh, OK. Well, I just wanted to say how cool that is that you have a gun! Do you carry it everywhere?"

At which point I explained that, while I certainly hadn't carried that Saturday night when I left my card (due to the crowd and minor inebriation on my part), under normal circumstances I do carry everywhere--the biggest exceptions being musical performances and crowded bars, or if I plan to be drinking. As it happened, I was on my way to meet a lady friend of my own, so I didn't stay to continue the conversation once the bartender located my card and I had paid up. But I think the story serves to illustrate that OC is not automatically going to generate negative attention, even in a place that serves alcohol. And as cheesy as the conversation may have been, in my own defense I can say I wasn't the one to initiate it.

Truth be told, I never bring up the fact that I'm carrying; others bring it up to make positive comments of their own volition. If anything, when I first started carrying, and I was still a bit nervous about what kind of reactions I would get, I was actually really encouraged by my fellow citizens, mostly by complete strangers. Suffice it to say that OCing reinforces my convictions on a daily basis.

With all that said, if you do OC to a place that serves alcohol (I would assume you would do so for the food), it's probably a good idea to sit at a table.

Oh, and I might as well say something about the "negative" reactions I've received. There have been two occasions (maybe three) where I've received a lingering "evil eye" (women each time). I, of course, merely smile and tip my hat.

 

[Deanimator]

As I recall, Virginia REQUIRES open carry in an establishment which serves liquor. That means if you CCW in Virginia, you don't get a choice whether you open carry in a restaurant with a liquor license. That of course doesn't stop cops from trying to entice people into violating the law by telling them to conceal their firearms in liquor dispensing establishments.

No matter WHAT you do, it's going to rub SOME anti-gun idiot the wrong way. Accept it.

 

[WayneConrad]

I'm starting to wonder if I'd generate less revulsion... with some gun rights activists... if I were to go down the street holding hands with a man and smooching than if I were to carry openly.

RE: Arizona being some kind of a special place for open carry. Open carry is not so common here, anymore, at least in the big city. Since CCW went into law, open carry has become not so common. If law enforcement is used to open carry, the people--many of them recently moved in from other states--certainly aren't. Still haven't had anyone faint, or hide their kids, or etc.

Had a few ask what caliber.

Those most prejudiced against me carrying openly seem to be my own side.

I'm wondering if what they're really wanting is for me to put on white face and straighten my hair before I go to town so I don't scare the town folk.

In the history of civil rights battles, is that a winning strategy?

 

[Buttermilk]

Do you like people who don't have any authority exerting control over you? Are you looking for a reason to cave in to their demands? Are you having trouble with a law that requires you to open carry? Why do officers wear guns? One reason is as a deterrent. Do you think BG's are just going to come charging at you and steal your gun? They are stupid but not that stupid. Does that make you a target? Or does it make you someone for BG's to avoid? Are you making a mountain out of a molehill? Are you looking for a reason not to open carry?
Just as with many other things in life, the more people see of something, the more they get used to it. So, use that right/privilige and help others to see that BG's don't like to be around people that are carrying and they will vacate an area that has people carrying and therefore people who are not carrying are safer around those who are. There will always be those who want to get there nose out of joint/be offended and all that is is someone trying to control you. Or, they are wanting to look down their nose at you and judge you. Don't let them run your life. I carry a 1911 all the time at about the 4 o'clock position in a Galco Summer Special holster that keeps the gun up real close and it is amazing how many people don't even know that I have it on. So, how and what you carry in may solve your problem. One of the ladies at work says it looks like my gun is peeking around from behind me. Maybe you would feel better if you address your problem that way.
Please don't stir up enough stink on a public forum that you create a problem for others and your state takes action and stops this right/privilige. Those of us who are trying to get open carry allowed in Texas want all the help we can get and not a recently passed law against open carry that someone can use as an example.
Thanks

 

[chris in va]

Please don't stir up enough stink on a public forum that you create a problem for others and your state takes action and stops this right/privilige

Hey, goosfrabah. Relax.

I know a few guys from the VCDL, shoot with them on occasion and have been to 'open carry' dinners a couple times (when I lived in N. VA).

It was a neutral question. Just worried that aspect of carry might gain more negative light than we intend. Apparently it's not the case, as evidenced by Marshaul. Maybe I'll get the nerve to OC again soon.

 

[oda226]

Longwatch,
I think that while your concerns are valid, this could be challenged in court and won. The proposed statute as is poorly written, ie: Who is the "designated" employee to declare CCW to? When must you declare that you are CCW?

I'm not advocating breaking the law. All I'm saying is that firstly, the current law is ludicrous and needs to be overturned. Hopefully the governor will sign the new statue into law.

Secondly, the requirement to "notify" is so poorly written that it could be used against legal CCW permit holders. Assuming you are correct about " not abiding by the conditions of the permit nullifies it", (we need to get a legal reading on this) a CCW holder who does not declare PRIOR to entry of the establishement could be prosecuted if his weapon was spotted by a member of law enforcement BEFORE he had the chance to declare that he was armed. As a former LEO, I can attest that there are those that are less benevolent than me and would gladly arrest an otherwise law abiding citizen.

These are some of the challenges I see here and I'm sure the Brady Bunch will attempt to exploit these weaknesses.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

my only problem is with the minute group who do it for the "shock and awe". but i can't figure a way to legislate that jerks can't carry so i guess we gotta put up with em till they do something stupid enough to be actionable. i had a friend who fit in that category fortunatly i'll be in my 70's before he gets out

 

[oda226]

Cassandrasdaddy,
I personally, prefer to carry concealed for personal reasons, but we must support the rights of all gun owners to exersize their right to openly carry firearms if their state permits it. Fractionalizing gun owners into different camps is exactly what the Brady Bunch wants and anyone who supports 2A and RKBA cannot allow this to happen.

ODA226

 

[mmike87]

I'm for open carry when it's appropriate. It's not appropriate eveywhere. OC for the sole purpose of drawing attention is just silly and does no one any good.

Just as it's not appropriate to wear a T-Shirt and jeans to a funeral, it's not appropriate to open carry everywhere, either.

THAT SAID - Virginia FORCES me to open carry whenever I go out to eat. Or, leave my gun in the car which just is not going to happen.

 

[mmike87]

oda226 - what you say reminds me of how Ohio was originally with CCW. You could not open carry, but you could only open carry when in your car. It was impossible to transition to and from your vehicle without violating the law.

I struggled with this during two trips since I have family in Indiana right across the Ohio border, and I drove through there and went to various activities in Ohio while visiting.

The proposed VA restaurant law is WORSE than the current situtation of just open carrying, IMO. To comply, you'd have to open carry to walk in, notify someone (who is naturally going to be shocked) and then transition back to concealed after everyone has already seen your weapon (defeating the purpose of concealed carry in the first place.)

I could care less if that law passes - I'll still open carry in restaurants until they stop treating me like a second class citizen. This law is NOT a "step in the right direction" it's a PITA that is essentially useless.

 

[oda226]

I'm for open carry when it's appropriate. It's not appropriate eveywhere. OC for the sole purpose of drawing attention is just silly and does no one any good.

MMike87,
I absolutely agree with you on this, but disagree that the proposed restaurant law is worse than the current situation. I would much rather notify management that I'm CCW than to let EVERYONE SEE that I'm carrying a weapon.

 

[mmike87]

But if the designated person is the manager, what if you have to wait 10 minutes to see him or her? You're still going to stand out in the open, waiting, open carrying, for all to see.

Plus, this makes it EASIER for the manager to say "NO". Managers are less likely to approach you on their own and say "get out with that gun" then they are to say "No, I'd rather you not have that in here" when you have to explicitly as for permission.

No, this law is so impractical that it's a win for the anti-gun folks. It's akin to being treated like a sex offender - you have to "check in" whereever you go.

Plus - do you have to check in every time? Can the manager say "yes" once and you're covered forever? If so, are they required to keep records of their approval? Are you? What if the designated person is your server, and they change shifts while you're eating? Now there is no one there whom you received approval from? Are they going to arrest me now - I suddenly became a criminal because my server or the assistant manager went home at the end of their shift?

 

[oda226]

MMike87,
We ARE on the same sheet of music afterall! These were my initial concerns also, but after reading the (poorly) written rider to this law, it NOWHERE states that a CCW MUST enter the establishment in OC, nor does it state that you must go OC at any time.

I think we should take this conversation off-line because I know there must be anti's here that would love to point out the holes in this bill and kill it. This won't serve anyone here justice. Drop me a PM!

226

 

[Smurfslayer]

agree

I'd like to shuffle this offline as well. There's already been a couple of less than truthful assertions put forth about the effect of the bill's language. It's definitely not worse than what we have now.

 

[sohmc]

marshaul: I think what you might find most surprising is what a "normal" thing it can be. I've carried in malls, in movie theaters, I carry to the bank; I carry literally everywhere I go.

I think this is a wording thing. I'd love to open-carry in a mall; Tyson's Corner (in VA) does not allow guns unless your a police officer.

I kind think a mall is a public place, even though it's private property.

Does anyone have any references to this?

Thanks!

 

[mmike87]

Tyson's Corner does not allow guns?

I carry anywhere that it is not AGAINST THE LAW to carry.

Tyson's Corner is not on the list.