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Virginia's next move

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by jr45, Nov 7, 2019.

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  1. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Who's talking about concessions? This is all about salvaging something from an otherwise grim situation.

    If we can get grandfathering without registration, and given the presumed effective date of July 1st, people will be able to stock up on lower receivers (and other things) between now and then. And, because the proposed UBC's won't kick in until then, either, these newly-acquired guns will be effectively untraceable.

    The antis obviously want registration because it would facilitate their plans for eventual confiscation. But, remember, this would not be a sudden kick-in-the-door scenario. Confiscation would take further legislation, and, thus being given plenty of warning, you could remove the guns from the state.
     
  2. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    Last night's Bloomberg campaign ad on heavy TV rotation was all about how he, singlehandedly defeated the NRA in Virginia. Multibillionaire going state by state to push gun control.
    Bloomberg already owns Nikki Fried.
     
  3. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.

    Perhaps it is merely a dream, but with these draconian laws, perhaps their will be a challenge that reaches the Supreme Court that will go our way. I highly doubt it, but perhaps. The other, more frightening, end of that spectrum, is that this ignites a literal firestorm of lead and gunfire across Virginia. There is certainly a lot of talk of that on the youtubes. Of course, most, if not all, of that, is keyboard commando talk. I hope.
     
  4. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    You're buying time. It's understandable given your earlier statements.

    Let me ask this, however: Let's say you buy a whole bunch of untraceable firearms. Those later become banned. Now what? Now you have a bunch of firearms that can never see the light of day ever again. If you're caught with one at the range, you go to jail. If you use one in self defense, you go to jail. If your ex-wife ever rats you out, you go to jail. You can never sell them, use them, or tell anyone in your life that you own them. But I guess that's a bridge to cross when you come to it.

    I'll say this much. I live a LONG way from VA, but Friday is payday, and I'll be sending some that way. Because you guys are right: Virginia is just the first domino. There is a Cold War in this nation and containment looks to be the only viable policy.
     
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  5. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    Yep, my guns would be REAL useful to me in that scenario. Assuming that other states haven't passed similar laws. And with the knowledge that "importation" will be illegal, precluding ever bringing them back into the state. Might as well chop them up, instead.
     
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  6. 40-82

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    What we have to remember is that a lot of people who voted against us in Virginia aren't that ardent as anti-gunners. I had a woman recently who voted Democratic ask me to explain to her what a semi-automatic firearm was. She, like most of them, wants to see something done, anything done. In truth, details don't really matter to her. The promise of the media and her Democratic legislators is sufficient. If people step forward promising expertise, isn't that enough?

    When I pointed out that violence was amoral in and of itself, that seemed to take her aback. If a city policeman protected her with his gun, that would either be violence or the threat of violence.

    In her world, she goes to work, travels her city, lives in her neighborhood, and never sees a gun. Looking out among an unarmed crowd has become a thing of comfort. The only time she hears of a gun is in a case of criminal activity.

    Then there's the problem with who wants gun rights. When the television camera pans the crowd of gun owners clamoring for their rights at a board of supervisors meeting, these people, mostly us, look unsavory and poor. Much more comforting is the professor of sociology the television stations interview to explain why individuals shouldn't have that kind of right or by implication that kind of political power.

    It's a war of images and impressions and the gatekeeper of these, the media, is against us.

    We can win the voters we need--or we can lose them. It's a matter of how we present ourselves.

    Deep down, the average American believes in individual liberties, although for a wealthy suburbanite it's a bit of a lump to swallow that the Constitution really meant that a poor, crudely mannered mountain farmer, such as myself, ought to have the same rights as he does.
     
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  7. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    When the confiscators come, you tell them that you removed the guns from the state. They have no way of verifying that. From that point forward, your ownership would be underground anyway. What we would then have in this country would be a gun situation similar to what's prevalent now in parts of Europe. That is, the laws on the books don't correspond to the real situation on the ground. The antigunners can legislate all they want, but people will just ignore them -- quietly, without making a big fuss about it. Pretty much the way things were under alcohol Prohibition. Then, when this "noble experiment" fails, there will be a backtracking.
     
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  8. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    Then why are you suggesting capitulation, instead of vehement resistance to passage, if you are advocating ignoring the laws anyway?
     
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  9. 40-82

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    This scenario has interesting implications. The confiscators could conclude you're telling the truth and simply melt away. After all, under the Fifth Amendment you're not required to testify against yourself. Under the Fourth Amendment, they're going to have to have more reason to conduct a search than "you seemed like the type." Besides you anticipated a search, and if the guns are still there, a cost-effective search won't find them--remember they may have hundreds of people to check.

    But then, you just lost the Second Amendment. Why would we imagine the others were more sacred. Extreme times call for extreme measures. The authorities may just lock you up for failure to turn over what they consider a sufficient arsenal.

    When the authorities come to your door for your guns, if you're a Southern rural male, even if you're a card carrying Democrat with canceled checks proving your donations to Moms Against Guns, you're going to want to have something to give them, even if you have to rush out and buy a few guns fast on the black market.

    If you don't, and you go to jail, don't take it so hard. You're taking one for the cause. After all, the heart of Democratic philosophy is the most good for the most people, and if that means sacrificing a few individual liberties, and a little individual justice, so be it.
     
  10. Craig_VA

    Craig_VA Member

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    1. Grandfathering without registration is impossible.
    2. Confiscation is the ultimate goal.
    2.a. Confiscation laws are already in place in some states, called Red Flag Laws.
    2.b. The Virginia Governor already proposed a Red Flag Law last summer at the special legislative session.
    2.c. A key aspect of any red flag law is WHO can ask for a confiscation. Some laws require it to be a family member or LEO. Other versions allow ANYONE to ask for a confiscation.
    3. Once confiscation begins, pay attention to how difficult the authorities make it to retrieve teh firearms. Remember the gawdaful mess N.O. police caused with failure to return guns after the infamous Rita confiscations.
     
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  11. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Sure, it's possible. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what the pre-filed SB 16 proposes to do in regard to over-ten-rounds magazines. "Possession" (as a crime) has been dropped from the bill, and there's no requirement for registration of magazines. Granted, the antigunners would like to have registration, but politically the path of least resistance for them is to do for guns what they are already proposing to do for magazines. They still get to take credit for a largely toothless "ban."
     
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  12. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    You just unraveled the bulk of the political divisions and strife in America. Town mouse vs country mouse.
     
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  13. 40-82

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    And yet when I walk these hills, it's not uncommon to step around a bend and come across the remnants of a grown-up old homestead, somebody's twenty acres where they eked out an existence in the rocky soil. People so poor that converted flintlocks were still in use in the twentieth century. A single barrel shotgun or single-shot .22 rifle were great luxuries. In the rough times these people knew real hunger, not the fake food-insecurity as it's called now in the modern ghetto.

    What happened to these people? They moved to the city to find whatever kind of job they could. Some of them did well. Some of them didn't.

    At heart they're us.
     
  14. HighRoadRover

    HighRoadRover Member

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    A few thoughts:

    First, I flat out I will comply with any new laws, even if I don't like them. I suspect virtually all of you will too. When someone rhetorically threatens "non-compliance" it just gives gun-banners more ammunition (no pun intended) and really doesn't give us any leverage in the political discussions.

    Second, registration of grandfathered "assault weapons" is not necessarily the same thing as confiscation -- but it would make confiscation a lot easier, so is not desirable. Grandfathering leave us on the intellectually spongy ground where we are saying, hey, this device is legal for anyone who had one last year, but anyone who had one in another state last year and just moved to Virginia, or anyone who just turned 21 here in Virginia, somehow isn't allowed to have one now. Why is that new person different, in terms of rights, from the grandfathered person? In practical terms, I guess I am making the hard choice of passive grandfathering being the best possible outcome in the current situation.

    Third, deep down I think a lot of the AR owners are young-through-middle-aged men (and some women) who identify with them because they are used by the good guys -- our police and military. A lot of gun owners in this category are vets or reservists or cops or first responders and they relate to these weapons. This is similar to the popularity of '03 Springfields and Enfields for older generations. Is the Guvnor telling us he has something in for this segment of Virginia society? That this generation needs to be singled out?

    (I suspect we may get a Federal law banning "assault rifles" and "high capacity magazines," similar to the 1995-2004 law, in the foreseeable future - depending on the next Congressional elections -- mooting some of our agony over Virginia's current situation).

    Finally, "red flag" laws are not necessarily the same thing as confiscation. We already have had a bunch of laws that allow authorities to take weapons away from people who could be a danger to others or themselves - felons, mentally unstable people, domestically violent offenders, people who have threatened suicide, etc. "Red Flag" laws can be effective to get guns out of the hands of bad people who telegraph their bad intentions: for example, Saudi military trainees in Florida who post anti-American manifestos or Antifa agitators who advocate violence against law enforcement officers. The problem is, "Red Flag" laws can be abused, if applied to people based on political or racial lines. If "Red Flag" laws are used as de facto confiscation of the mass of people's legally-owned guns, then they are being abused. What any new "red flag" law should have a requirement to report annually the number of uses of the law and the circumstances, so we can keep tabs on potential abuse. Any new laws should include a provision that sunsets the confiscation, unless contra-indicated by a legitimate investigation and finding by the court, after a relatively short period - with mandatory return of the weapon to the individual.

    Well, those are my meandering thoughts on this topic. I recommend we all write letters to Virginia's legislators -- letters of support to the good guys, letters to the middle ground explaining why the 2A is important, letters to the gun banners telling them we are really prefer they crack down on crime, not torment law-abiding citizens.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  15. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Seems like the rhetoric is heating up. State legislators threatening unspecified consequences for sanctuary counties and to call in the National Guard to enforce state gun control laws. I hope it's rhetoric.
     
  16. Doc7

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    RE the future federal laws you mentioned: If 30,000 armed civilians on Lobby Day convince the legislators to weaken or abandon these proposals, there will be 500,000 armed civilians in DC to accomplish the same.
     
  17. Zendude
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    Zendude Contributing Member

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    Sounds like rhetoric. I’m not sure how the Guard would enforce a registration requirement. Since most in the Guard tend to live in rural areas, they might also be unwilling to enforce such laws.
     
  18. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    An interesting approach - County ordinances intended for a court challenge and a order for militia to ensure the RKBA is open to constituents regardless of state laws passed. Planning to go to court for a challenge is an important forethought.

    https://healthandmoneynews.wordpres...NAX4mxvgbnPboGDwRo6XcJQC82YUgiQwfY3S7eP_xqwUg

     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  19. Arubalover

    Arubalover Member

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    Those who get their paychecks, benefits and retirement from gov’t will do as told, sadly.
     
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  20. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Considering the counties are taking preemptive action preparing for laws that might be passed (making a law unenforceable helps the argument against it in court) the same counties could band together to file injunctions against any action by VA with respect to deploying the Guard.

    Preparation through laws passed now will be important to block action by the state. The counties must be prepared to file in court immediately so an injunction on state action is blocks the state during the decision by the courts. It requires starting in courts friendly to the 2A that are under higher courts friendly to the 2A. As long as the VA Supreme Court will hear the case against the state it can keep the state's hands tied with an injunction. If the VA Supreme Court might rule in favor of the 2A supporting counties Virginia won't have an enforceable law.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  21. 40-82

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    There is a real line between an American law officer and the Gestapo. In the Nuremberg trials the civilized world heard the argument, "I was only following orders."

    We didn't buy it.
     
  22. Arubalover

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  23. Jeb Stuart

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    Northam setting up Virginia for a very dangerous time. He is pouring gasoline on the 2nd Amendment. And it is progressing to get very frightening. Make no mistake, He is a enemy to this country. And how disgusting to even think Honorable men and women of the National Guard would be used to help destroy the constitution and go against law abiding citizens that want nothing more than to protect the Constitution. . How far did Hitler take it? The Idea of using our National Guard as a political tool for this cowardly, disgusting Gov, is a insult to every man and woman that ever put on a Uniform.
    History is about to repeat itself. Something tells me this anti-american picked the wrong state.This is a very dangerous man.

    wKuUvQk.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  24. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    I'm not suggesting capitulation. I'm all for "vehement resistance," but I'm also trying to be realistic as to the prospects. We need to think about our next moves as this thing moves through the legislature, as well as what we do, collectively and individually, if it passes.
    This is where it gets interesting. The fight is going to be about grandfathering and registration, and the exact meaning of each of these terms. Of course, the best outcome would be to have no AWB at all, but if it comes, the least harmful version would include grandfathering of existing weapons (and those to be acquired before July 1st). Then, the question would be grandfathering with registration, or grandfathering without registration. Obviously without registration would be preferable.

    The governor is now, apparently, proposing a registration scheme as the price for agreeing to grandfathering. On its face, the sole purpose of this registration scheme would be to facilitate a later confiscation (or "buyback," etc.). Nothing else would be linked to it. You would register, and I suppose that would let you use your guns in public, whereas unregistered guns would be relegated to the underground.

    Let's look at registration under the NFA of 1934. Initial registration of machine guns, etc., was free, but thereafter it was linked to subsequent transfers, which would be regulated and taxed. There was no freeze on new machine guns until 1986. We have seen what has happened to the "transferable" machine gun market after 1986. (Prices have soared.)

    The governor's plan includes a flat ban on sales and transfers of AWs. Therefore, presumably, registered guns would be forfeited upon the deaths of their owners. (That's assuming that confiscation is not enacted in the interim.)

    There has to be an incentive to get people to register. Suppose, for example, that there's a carve-out from the ban on sales and transfers for AWs that are registered. This would make them far more valuable than ones that are unregistered.

    The mechanics of registration would also be an issue. Virginia currently has registration of machine guns with the State Police (under the Uniform Machine Gun Act). That could be expanded to cover AWs, rather than create a whole new bureaucracy. But the additional staffing of the State Police would cost. Would a fee be levied for registrations? That would go against the idea of making registration as easy as possible.

    These are all things to think about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  25. Thibaut

    Thibaut Member

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    Voters chose party over candidate in Virginia. Repeatedly. That is what led to this (and oncoming) situations. Voters sit and watch the electoral climate change and are then astounded when the train hits the station empty for them. Vote.
     
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