WA State Alien Firearms Licenses

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MD_Willington

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Canuck in SE WA State.
In 2002 I applied for, an received my WA State Department of Licensing (DOL) Alien Firearms License (AFL) as per RCW 9.41.170 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.170)

The license is good for 5 years after the date of issue, mine was good until 8/20/2007. I planned on getting a new one months before it was due to expire.

Currently the DOL WILL NOT issue anyone a new AFL.

WA State DOL said:
Special alert for alien firearms license applicants

We are unable to issue alien firearms licenses at this time. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has told law enforcement agencies it is against federal law to use federal databases for background checks if the law enforcement agencies share the results with a non-criminal justice agency such as the Department of Licensing. This means law enforcement agencies cannot perform the background checks required by state law for issuing an alien firearms license. Without these background checks, we cannot complete the application process or issue alien firearms licenses.

John Frazer said:
By the way, there have been successful challenges to this type of permit in other states, with litigation on Kentucky's law under way now. These challenges have been under the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. A challenge in Washington failed in 1994, but it wasn't the strongest case.

To become active on this issue I have done the following and would like anyone else in the same position as I am to do this too:

Contact your WA State Representative:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/Default.aspx


Contact Second Amendment Foundation in Bellevue WA.
http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=mission
(425)-454-7012


Contact Robin Ball of www.sharpshooting.net in Spokane
(509) 535-4444

Robin was able to get me in touch with John Frazer of the NRA


I believe the only way we can get this fixed is if we address this issue together.

Thank you for your time!

MD
 
Please support this inquiry with ideas and info. I'd like to help out but don't know enough to even start making supporting graphics.
 
Replies so far:

Robin Ball said:
Matt, I am copying John Fraser in on this email so that the two of you may be able to correspond and find a solution to you problem. As I mentioned, in the last month I have found numerous problems with the way background checks are being handled in the state of Washington. We will need to go to the legislature to get the appropriate changes made and I intend to work with police records to get the info right before we even approach anyone for changes.

Hi John, I just got off the phone with Matt. He is a Canadian who has live in WA for the past 8 years. He is attempting to follow the law but WA Department of Licensing is telling him they can no longer do background checks on the federal level and therefore cannot issue him an alien firearms permit. I should also mention he has a current and valid WA state concealed carry permit already.

In the past couple of months, we are finding police records and Department of Licensing messing with the way we process customers with and those without carry permits. There is a lot of confusion and each county has their own ways of processing. It becomes a problem for us when we are dealing outside of Spokane County. I believe the problems for the issuance of alien firearms permits stems from the same Department of Licensing policies we are seeing on all firearms processing.

Any info or help you can shed on this will be greatly appreciated. Call me if I can help or shed more light on what is happening on the left coast!

Robin

P.S., I had a guy in here a couple weeks ago (can’t remember his name) but I believe he is from Britain or Ireland now living in Canada. He mentioned knowing you from political dealings. He drove down to buy AR-15 accessories. Says he is still actively involved in Canada’s gun law confusion!

John Frazer said:
Robin,

I had a previous inquiry on this from a British citizen living in the Seattle area.

After talking to him, I spoke with an FBI NICS attorney who explained that FBI regulations only allow them to do background checks for a "law enforcement purpose," and since Dept. of Licensing isn't a law enforcement agency, they don't count.

She suggested that an alien might be able to apply for a CPL and try presenting that to Dept. of Licensing as satisfaction of the background check requirement. I never heard back from him, so I don't know if he tried that or if it worked. Since Matt already has a license, he might try as well.

I believe she said the best long-term option would be to transfer the issuance of alien permits to a law enforcement agency, which would require legislation.

By the way, there have been successful challenges to this type of permit in other states, with litigation on Kentucky's law under way now. These challenges have been under the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. A challenge in Washington failed in 1994, but it wasn't the strongest case.

I hope this is helpful, and please let me know if you have any questions.


Best regards,

John Frazer



Schoesler said:
Matt,

We will need to seek advisement from our legal staff regarding your
case. They are out of the office today, so I will follow-up with this on
Monday. Thanks for contacting us, we will get back to you when we hear
something.

Legislative Aide to
Senator Mark Schoesler
 
Sharing some responses from State .GOV employees.

Pay close attention to the last two pages of the response from Cathy McMorris-Rogers, the FBI actually respond to her inquiry.

The FBI outlines a course of action for the DOL to take so that they can obtain the background check data they need.

The other .GOV employees, no help... even when I did fill out the release form.

I am currently playing email "tag" a Legislative Aide to Senator Mark Schoesler.
 

Attachments

  • McMorrisRogers.pdf
    194.3 KB · Views: 89
  • Cantwell.pdf
    35.7 KB · Views: 38
  • Murray.pdf
    32 KB · Views: 38
Updated September 7th 2007

MD_Willington said:
09/07/07 03:37 PM
To "Buri, Rep. David" <[email protected]>
cc "Hahn, Pam" <[email protected]>

Subject RE: Need help with Alien Firearms License


Sounds like the DOL has give you the "form letter" response saying they cannot access FBI background checks.

This is not entirely true.

I will attached a letter from the FBI dated July 31, 2007, that was sent to Cathy McMorris Rogers regarding this issue, it gives the DOL a prescribed method of obtaining a valid criminal background check for a legal immigrant through ICE & DHS via the NLETS system.


Please see the explanation on the last two pages.

Thank you for your time.

Matt
attachment "McMorrisRogers.pdf"


09/05/07 02:04 PM
To MD_Willington

Subject RE: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Matt,

Thank you for your email and calling this to my attention. My
assistant, Pam Hahn spoke with Mr. Bill Forth with the Firearms Division
within the Department of Licensing. Your information is absolutely
correct. It may seem hard to believe, but the FBI has a policy on how
to give our information and currently, the Department is unable to
collect that information.

There are approximately 700 Alien Firearm Licenses that are all expiring
within the State of Washington, one being yours. The legislature tried
to pass two separate pieces of legislation last year in the 2007
session, but both bills died without passage. That is why this problem
exists now. The legislation that needs to pass would allow the FBI to
give the information to either the Sherriff or the Washington State
Patrol. Without this legislation, the department currently has no
authority to give out these licenses.

The next legislative session is scheduled to begin on January 14, 2008.
So until then, there is literally nothing that can be done. So you'll
know, it is a Class C Felony for you to have a firearm. The Department
recommends that your firearms be held by someone other than members of
your family, as they cannot be in your home. A friend's home is a
better idea.

I'll put this in my 2008 Legislative file, so that I can track this for
the upcoming session. I'm sorry I don't have better news for you.

Sincerely,

David Buri

MD_Willington said:
09/05/07 03:43 PM
To: "Buri, Rep. David" <[email protected]>

Subject RE: Need help with Alien Firearms License


Thanks for the reply, I do know about the felony, and as such, my firearms are not at my house, they are indeed locked away at a friends house in another town.

Thanks

Matt


Winters said:
09/04/07 09:20 AM

Matt,

I haven't heard back from them yet - but I am following up on this today.

Krista


MD_Willington said:
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007
To: Winters, Krista
Subject: RE: FW: Need help with Alien Firearms License


The DOL will probably give you the "form letter" saying they cannot access FBI background checks.

This is not entirely true.

I will attached a letter from the FBI that was sent to Cathy McMorris Rogers regarding this Issue, it gives the DOL a prescribed method of obtaining a criminal background check for a legal immigrant through ICE & DHS.


See the explanation on the last two pages.

Thank you for your time.

Matt

Winters said:
08/29/07 09:33 AM

To: MD_Willington

Subject RE: FW: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Matt,

I was told by staff to question our liaison with DOL about this, I have forwarded your email to them and currently waiting for a reply.

Krista

MD_Willington said:
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:46 PM
To: Winters, Krista
Subject: Re: FW: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Hello Krista

Any word on the situation yet.

Thank you for your time.

Matt
 
There have been bills in the last 2 legislative sessions to fix the issue. DOL has done nothing in Olympia to get a fix.

And why would they, they are getting paid to process AFL (only they can’t so they sit around hmmm)
 
I'm a perm. res....so WA is one of those states that requires a permit for firearm ownership? Is that the issue here?

I'm finding it confusing that they differentiate between alien firearms owners and citizen firearms owners.
 
Well , become a citizen . You live here , pay taxes , enjoy all the USA has to offer . I see this as the best way .
 
Unalienable human rights know no border.

With the dems controlling the legislature and the governors office I'm not surprised this happened.

Note that a year or two ago they changed the way they handle out of state permits too. Must apply in person, and pick up the card in person (rather than apply in person, and they mail you the card 30 days later).
 
Dgindlesperger,

Yes, immigrant and non-immigrant aliens can legally obtain firearms. The "who, how & why", is outlined at the DOJ website.

watson0625,

WA State requires Aliens of non-immigrant and immigrant status to have a firearms license, there are exemptions, I do not fall into those.

rosco22,

this would make the most sense and it is the usual answer I get... however, an immigrant alien cannot just stroll into the nearest US Government courthouse and get their citizenship, the soonest I can get US citizenship is JUNE 2010
 
Oh, man. When I read "Alien Firearms" in the subject line I thought it was a reference to phasers, disrupters and cool stuff like that. Imagine my disappointment.
 
No, not really...

WA State RCW 9.41.170 said:
Alien's license to carry firearms — Exception.


(1) It is a class C felony for any person who is not a citizen of the United States to carry or possess any firearm, without first having obtained an alien firearm license from the director of licensing. In order to be eligible for a license, an alien must provide proof that he or she is lawfully present in the United States, which the director of licensing shall verify through the appropriate authorities. Except as provided in subsection (2)(a) of this section, and subject to the additional requirements of subsection (2)(b) of this section, the director of licensing may issue an alien firearm license only upon receiving from the consul domiciled in this state representing the country of the alien, a certified copy of the alien's criminal history in the alien's country indicating the alien is not ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to own, possess, or control a firearm, and the consul's attestation that the alien is a responsible person.

(2)(a) Subject to the additional requirements of (b) of this subsection, the director of licensing may issue an alien firearm license without a certified copy of the alien's criminal history or the consul's attestation required by subsection (1) of this section, if the alien has been a resident of this state for at least two years and: (i) The alien is from a country without a consul domiciled within this state, or (ii) the consul has failed to provide, within ninety days after a request by the alien, the criminal history or attestation required by subsection (1) of this section.

(b) Before issuing an alien firearm license under subsection (1) of this section or this subsection (2), the director of licensing shall ask the local law enforcement agency of the jurisdiction in which the alien resides to complete a background and fingerprint check to determine the alien's eligibility under RCW 9.41.040 to own, possess, or control a firearm. The law enforcement agency shall complete a background check within thirty days after the request, unless the alien does not have a valid Washington driver's license or Washington state identification card. In the latter case, the law enforcement agency shall complete the background check within sixty days after the request.

A signed application for an alien firearm license shall constitute a waiver of confidentiality and written request that the department of social and health services, mental health institutions, and other health care facilities release information relevant to the applicant's eligibility for an alien firearm license to an inquiring law enforcement agency.

(3) The alien firearm license shall be valid for five years from the date of issue so long as the alien is lawfully present in the United States. The nonrefundable fee, paid upon application, for the five-year license shall be fifty-five dollars plus additional charges imposed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that are passed on to the applicant. The fee shall be distributed as follows:

(a) Fifteen dollars shall be paid to the department of licensing;

(b) Twenty-five dollars shall be paid to the Washington state patrol; and

(c) Fifteen dollars shall be paid to the local law enforcement agency conducting the background check.

(4) This section shall not apply to Canadian citizens resident in a province which has an enactment or public policy providing substantially similar privilege to residents of the state of Washington and who are carrying or possessing weapons for the purpose of using them in the hunting of game while such persons are in the act of hunting, or while on a hunting trip, or while such persons are competing in a bona fide trap or skeet shoot or any other organized contest where rifles, pistols, or shotguns are used. Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow aliens to hunt or fish in this state without first having obtained a regular hunting or fishing license.

(1996 c 295 § 11; 1994 c 190 § 1; 1979 c 158 § 3; 1969 ex.s. c 90 § 1; 1953 c 109 § 1. Prior: 1911 c 52 § 1; RRS § 2517-1.)

Now look at section (4)...

I don't really get it, but a "non-resident" who has passed the Canadian Firearms Safety Course can apply for a five-year PAL. That means an American from WA State can go to Vancouver BC Canada, take the safety course, and get a firearms license... and they can still do that today

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/Licensing/default_e.asp

Anyway to get around this whole thing is section (4) saying I'm exempt if I go out and get a hunting license/tag for this year, and if I join a few local clubs and show up for sanctioned shooting events...:confused:
 
this would make the most sense and it is the usual answer I get... however, an immigrant alien cannot just stroll into the nearest US Government courthouse and get their citizenship, the soonest I can get US citizenship is JUNE 2010

That sucks , a person here and being productive , law abiding .

Good luck !!!
 
Reply from David Buri
09/10/07 03:12 PM


Thank you for this information, Matt.

I appreciate the copy of the letter, I believe it does explain it exactly. Both actions that are recommended on the last two pages require passage of legislation. For us to pass legislation, we need to be in session and session does not begin until January 14, 2008. I know both the Department of Licensing and Department of Justice will be eager to see passage of legislation that will make the necessary changes with the issue of background checks.

I will keep your email address and let you know when the legislation is introduced this next session.

Sincerely,
David Buri
 
This happens because people who want an alien firearms license are few. So few politicians care to fulfill their needs.

The same is happening with the gun community, as there are fewer and fewer gun owner the laws tighten and no fewer and fewer care.
 
Amendment 14, Equal Protection Clause violations

For every .gov employee I have contacted, I have expressed that WA State RCW 9.41.170 was a violation of the Amendment 14, Equal Protection Clause.


I have received notice of 700 people that are in the same position as I am.

The government employees are saying they cannot do anything until the next session in the house.

Now I need to figure out how to get those 700 people together, and get legal representation and go after WA State RCW 9.41.170...

Not sure how I can do this though...
 
Isn't it nice when a "government loophole" removes the right to own firearms from a segment of society? Grrrr.

It's akin to the defunding of the federal program that restores firearm rights to those convicted of federal felonies.

They chip away at sub groups (legal immigrants, ex-felons, etc) completely removing a fundamental right via administration double dealing. Rights shouldn't come and go with the stroke of a pen.

The rest of us hardly even notice or care, because the 'majority' aren't affected.
 
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