Wal-Mart security kills man who stole BB Gun and diapers

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What about putting your hand on the stove, but only when the burner is on low? C'mon, it's on low, what do you have to lose?

Seriouly, though, you can put your hand into the oven when it's on low, and you're ok. That's air. Put your hand on the burner and heat transfer is much greater.

While vehilcles don't actually get hot enough to cook eggs, they get hot enough to burn you. And the longer you touch the worse you burn it.

And a half hour holding my hand on the burner... damn.

And you have to appreciate how these wannabe cops have learned the ways - 'he's on drugs, stay back, it's under control'.



Aside - what's also disturbing is that no-one helped this man. This man is probably not somebody any of us would want to share an elevator with, to say the least. But he was a human, and he was being slowly killed, quite obviously.

It's amazing how many people will bow to the pretense of authority, how they will believe the obvious lies (he's ok), or they will know better yet do nothing anyway.

I tell you this sort of ambivalence has let all sorts of evil happen in the past, and we're being shown crystal-clear pictures that the situation is right so they can still happen today. Crystal freaking clear.
 
20 minutes or more is a long time to be face down on the pavement. Go try it barefoot. :)

"Does anyone doubt the "high-profile" attorney's vision might have been clouded slightly by all the $$$$ he kept seeing?"

Me. Not everybody is trolling for business, especially the high profile types.

John
 
I was under the impression that they had exactly the same amount of legal authority as any other citizen

In my state they do, which means if you see a crime going on you are justified in performing a citizen's arrest and alerting authorities immediately.
 
A stove and asphalt have nothing in common.

A burner on low is still hot enough to burn paper and boil water which means it's well above 212F in temperature. Black asphalt on a sunny day gets hot. On a 100F+ day, the surface can probably peak at 140F due to absorbing energy from the Sun and radiating it since it's a very good blackbody radiator, but I've never thrown ice on asphalt on a hot day and watch it literally boil away (though it'll evaporate much more readily).

A burner and asphalt are two different things. Asphalt is radiating heat it readily absorbed from the Sun. It isn't it's own self-sustaining heat source like a stove. It can get hot, but only to a certain point and it ceases to stay at an elevated temperature when Sun is no longer shining on it. The guy was on the patch of asphalt which meant the Sun was no longer shining on it and the asphalt he was on cooled off underneath him. On a hot day, touch asphalt thats been in direct Sun. Then cast a shadow over it and watch/feel how fast it cools off. That's all useless details though.

Either way, the guy was fat. How fat? It's unsure. I find it much more likely his violent collapse onto the pavement broke his ribs and caused punctured lungs or a collapsed lung. At this point, it's only speculation.
 
I agree, with conditions. My burner on low doesn't boil water, and it's a well known fact that cities effect microclimates exactly because of the retention and slow release of thermal energy. That's why it can be so hot in a city on a summer night, yet cool out in the country, you're living on a giant terrarium heat-rock.

And we all agree he was not cooked alive, that there was no puddle of grease from his run-off... Just that he was allegedly submitted to extremely cruel and unusual, well it wasn't punishment because he hadn't been tried, but he was submitted to cruel and unusual physical battery. IOW he was tortured.

And as for how hot is too hot, if you walk in the desert the sand will burn your feet. In fact, in the 1920's there was a religious scandal when a young lady in California with a large religious following disappeared (on a love vacation) and then to cover-up claimed she was kidnapped and escaped by walking barefoot through the desert. Her story was disproved because the burns to her feet were nowhere near extensive enough, And a dark surface will be absorbing even more radiation than sand-colored sand does.

Furthermore I agree that after 19 minutes the pavement would be cooler than when he lay down on it first, but that matters little. As well it will not cool to his ordinary body temperature, for 2 reasons. #1 his body temperature is higher than it should be, for multiple reasons. #2 the surrounding pavement will serve to heat the pavement under him to a degree. So after 20 minutes the pavement would stll have the temperature to be very uncomfortable, but you would not feel it because you'd have 2nd degree burns numbing your nerve endings.
 
Well said. Our old electric stove burns towels on low. I was a kid and went to wipe down the burners while it was on low (stupid me). It ended up stinking up the kitchen since it turned my mom's favorite silkscreened (or whatever they call it...it had a picture) terrycloth into a smoldering black mess :uhoh: Don't tell her :p . That was probably before they tailored stoves to be child-safe. Still, we don't know exactly how hot it was that day so we're on a theoretical back-and-forth.

I will agree that the hot pavement would serve to aggravate the individual and perhaps even trigger any health problems. I'm under the belief that heat from the pavement wasn't the sole cause of his death but probably helped aggravate the condition he was in. Getting WWF-slammed into the pavement and then sat/restrained on probably jostled up his insides pretty good. Looks like we're going to have to wait for the coroner's report on this one.
 
I don't really think the temperature of the pavement is very relevant. Yes, it would be uncomfortable, but it won't kill you. This seems a lot more important: one of the men had Driver in a chokehold and had his knee in the back of his neck as the men tried to subdue him.

Choking and pressing someone can't be very healthy. And I think this is an excellent question: Just why couldn't "a second pair of cuffs ... be used to attach the ones already on Driver to a nearby truck trailer"?

And why did it take the ambulance 20 minutes to show up?
 
The authority the Loss Prevention guys were probably working under is Article 18.16 of the Texas Code of criminal Procedure:
Art. 18.16. Preventing consequences of theft

Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft by
seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing it,
with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that person
can be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering
the property and the person suspected of committing the theft to a
peace officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure under this
article, there must be reasonable ground to believe the property is
stolen, and the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had
without delay.

We don't know what happened here, but I do find something a little odd in the witness statement:

He said one of the men had Driver [highlight]in a chokehold[/highlight] and had his knee in the back of his neck as the men tried to subdue him. "He kept trying to get up and they kept pushing him back down," Portz said.

According to Portz, [highlight]Driver began to plead with them[sic] men.[/highlight] "He's begging, 'Please call an ambulance, let me up, do something, I'm gonna die," said Portz.

Now, I've applied and received my fair share of chokeholds in judo and shootfighting sparring and I've applied chokeholds on the street.

People don't talk, much less plead, when they're in a chokehold, folks.

Probably sloppy reporting, but could be one to keep an eye on.

LawDog
 
When I was working in a warehouse at a big store a guy gan off with a weed-wacker. The owner's grown son was all macho and took off in chase, a chase a heavy guy like him could never win, and a bunch of warehouse guys figured why not. Lol but they weren't model employees, some were more likely to be on the other side of the chase in fact, so they only ran far enough to be out of sight and then took a good long break:)

BWT it reads like it was 20 minutes of intermittent choking and pleading, and struggling, which would lead to choking, which subsided with pleading, then struggling to get up, then...
 
I am not siding on for anyone here, but I would like to point out that I burned my feet to the point of blisters walking on an asphalt road back in the early 70's.

I was with two girls (who were smart enough to wear sandals), and had been going barefoot almost continously for the past two years (yup, my hippie phase :D ). They were going down the road to climb down the reservoir bank. Intent was skinny-dippin', and I was bound and determined to follow them! :rolleyes:

distance was about 25 yards, and I MOVED brutha! Both feet were blistered and took weeks to heal up. A messy situation, though the water and companionship, ahem, soothed me more than a bit.

I sure as heck would not want to be held down by a slew of folks none too gentle on hot asphalt, I surely would not.

Otony
 
Hmm, Interesting...

I saw about the same thing when I brought my Ruger 10/22 from Walmart. As an assistant manager was escorting us out of the store, I saw a guy pinned down by three big guys. I asked what in the h#$!? and the manager said it was a shoplifter apprehended by security.

They should have used more care...If a cop did this, you would hear on the national news the awful cries about "police brutality" :barf: . But you here nothing.

I can't really take a side on this due to lack of info. However, I feel no sympathy for shoplifters, even for the ones who 'lift from the hated Walmart corporation. But I definetly do not take Walmart's side either.
 
This guy was a shoplifter, and deserved to be punished. But misdemeaner shoplifting is not a capitol offense. These loss prevention goons definitely overstepped their authority, and should be charged with, at minimum, aggrivated assault (if not involuntary manslaughter). We, as civilians, are not allowed to pursue a burgler once outside of our homes. And a commercial retail store is not given the right to use force to prevent loss. They are only allowed to attempt to keep the suspect in the store until police arrive.

Bet these five kids will really regret killing a man to save a few bucks for an employer they will grow to hate.
 
Shoplifter-Certainly did not deserve to die.

Criminal activity-Carries with it great risks. Although this story saddens me he put himself in this position-personal responsibility.

Loss prevention- Oops! What have we done over a sack of diapers and some
BB's.

Wal-Mart- Sued for many $million$

Shoppers-We all pay for the actions of a theif a penny at a time.

Whos fault?- The criminal that started this chain of events. Sad.
 
Not Taking Sides!!!!!

I am a LP for Walmart in California, and I was taught that only enough force to stop an attack on yourself was all that is allowed. LP's for Walmart have to wait until the suspect has left the building before we are allowed to approach them but even if they fight or run as long as we get the merchandise back we are to end all confrontations. If they are nice enough to come back inside with us then we get the stat. I myself have a problem with my upper supervisors who want more stats even though the main part of our job is detterence which is why I am waiting for my replacement..

But I have heard stories of LP's being to over zealous for their own good. If the LP's screwed up let them pay.
That's my .02!
 
Shoplifter? Are you sure?

When I go into Wal-Mart, there's a nice old person who says, "Hello."

When I leave, there's a dip-s__t old person who thinks he has to inspect my bag or my cart, because there are no customer service people paying any attention to my customer needs when I'm in the store.

So it's assumed that I'm a shoplifter because it's easier to do that than it is to help me a little while I'm trying to give Wal-Mart some business.

Wal-Mart does not need to kill people.

:fire:
 
When I leave, there's a dip-s__t old person who thinks he has to inspect my bag or my cart, because there are no customer service people paying any attention to my customer needs when I'm in the store.
I've rarely encountered this when shopping (can count on two hands over the years). When I've been in a good mood, I'll reply "Sure, I'd I'd like a large pizza with Calimari, palm grubs and pineapple with a side of deep fried baby fingers" while I keep walking. Confuses the LP Mr. Redshirts long enough to exit the premises. When I'm NOT in a good mood, the reply is a simple "NO". The two times the issue has been pressed, all merchandise has been returned right then and there, the "official" is given a dressing down, followed by a call, email and letter to the Corp. office. Never had a 2nd occurrence when I returned.

Wally-World "copulated with Fido" in this case, and somebody died who, while he may have been a thieving scumbag, did not deserve the fate imposed on him.
 
Sounds like he won a Darwin Award to me.

I do not believe that the employess would have held him down on pavement if he had not stolen, run, resisted, etc.

I don't have a very high opinion of the LP employees but dead guy was stupid to the bone. Earth to dead guy: If you had stopped with your loot in the store and resisted...you would have been held down on a nice air conditioned floor.

Once it reaches a certain level of intensity; stupidity IS a capital crime. The universe exacts the penalty without mercy and there is no appeal. (paraphrasing Robert Heinlein's original statement)

It's really simple..don't want to die stupidly? Don't live stupidly.

It wasn't the crimininality that killed him...it was the stupidity that was terminal.

I'll save my sympathy for more deserving candidates; such as heavy smokers who have lung cancer.
 
Since when are store employees allowed to tackle/detain shoplifters when outside the store? :confused:

Should be interesting to see the outcome of this mess.
 
Since when are store employees allowed to tackle/detain shoplifters when outside the store?

Since when havent they?

If some guy grabs your wallet do you have to stop chasing him at your property line?
 
My guess is that a combination of factors killed him--lack of oxygen, panic reaction, etc. But I wouldn't rule out a very high body temperature as a factor. I worked as a roofer's helper one summer, and the shingled surfaces were hot enough to burn exposed skin very quickly. I can only imagine what lying down shirtless on that stuff would have been like. I figure you'd go into shock pretty quickly, especially if you were breathing heavy from running and had three goons sitting on you. Not to mention probably being overweight, out of shape, and wacked out on something to begin with. Heat stroke can be fatal. You don't have to literally fry to die from heat.

Shoplifting is stupid, but not usually fatally stupid. I would reserve that title for hurricane watchers and people who pose for pictures with large carnivores.
 
In this instance, WM needed to do a bit better job keeping the thief form dying while they held him. By appearing to care a bit more for the safety of the "poor shirtless Red Ryder aficionado" they could have saved themselves some money. Maybe they will learn to keep mediocre people out of jobs that require good judgement. Most probably not.

I have no pity for the thief either. He chose to violate other people's property rights. Had he chosen to respect them he might hae lived through the day. He reaped what he sowed.

Did he deserve his miserable end? I don't know. I'm ignorant of his history and unqualified to judge. But I know know this: Sometimes life is harsh.

David
 
"The guy was on the patch of asphalt which meant the Sun was no longer shining on it and the asphalt he was on cooled off underneath him."

It doesn't work that way. Think about the constant heat transfer from the surrounding blacktop that's still hot and still soaking up sunlight.

John
 
Since when are store employees allowed to tackle/detain shoplifters when outside the store?
If they're still in the store, it aint shoplifting yet. What, the parking lot isn't store property? Now, if they dog-piled him at the Burger King across the street, then you have an issue.
No opinions on legality, other than Wally will pay big. And the lawyer/witness? He's gonna make some money off of this too.
 
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