We can learn a few things from ancient/vintage pieces.
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Shanghai McCoy
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Nice pictures, pity the handles are gone but it does give you a good view if the construction of these swords.
A couple of those sure have much smaller tangs than I would have expected.
A couple of those sure have much smaller tangs than I would have expected.
lemaymiami
Member
Since I was an Army brat and raised overseas off and on... both my brother and I got dragged through a few museums way back when in Europe... From what I remember seeing and hearing back in the days of these old weapons - the guy swinging it was a lot smaller than our average heights today... I'm guessing that they simply didn't have the horsepower to break a hilt - a tip or a blade certainly - but not the handle area.....
I'm sure that others, a lot more schooled than I am can chime in here but that's my take on it.
I'm sure that others, a lot more schooled than I am can chime in here but that's my take on it.
OP
OP
The little guy=not strong wouldn't make sense for a 10C warrior that trained from the age of 7 much of the time and ate regularly and relatively well. They were weapons themselves and as such were probably nearly as strong as a modern HS wrestler with the stamina of a competitive tennis player. They didn't have to be tall by our standards to be fiercely strong.
I think a significant take away studying these swords and others on the auction sites is that our assumptions about the size of the steel for needed for tangs might be a bit off.
PWC
Member
True, but a heavier tang moves the balance back toward the hilt.
Shanghai McCoy
Member
Perhaps the one with the "rat tail" tang was a ceremonial or a kid's sword..?
Deltaboy1984
Member
They were double edged and had nice head on the back of the handle to keep your grip ! Plus you could hammer pall them with it.
OP
OP
The pommel helps balance the blade.
Steel was god awful expensive, I don't know if that is the reason for the thin tangs, but who ever made it, would have used a very strong handle. I am aware of certain knife designs, such as the Cold Steel Laredo, which uses steel cable welded to a short tang. The cable is tensioned by a pommel screw. Seems to work.
OP
OP
And that's not even a modern idea. I know it was used in the 1800s in mass produced "bowies" along with various other techniques to make them cheaper to produce. The problem with the CS product is they left out the old technique of a butt cap to make it hold together more solidly.
I know we didn't grow them as big back then, but I have heard of archers drawing 200lb bows for distance engagement. I would be willing to bet our tall large/fat frames would be outworked and pound for pound out muscled by the sinewy folks of long ago who were trained to fight as a profession.
As for the tangs being thin, if it didnt work they wouldn't have done it. I think it's a combination of knowing how to build a functional blade and a soldier knowing how to use it properly.
I think we put too much stock into tang thickness sometimes. There a plenty of knives that hold up to hard use with minimal tangs. Take the traditional khukuri build with a half tang glued into a wooden handle with a boiled sap epoxy, it can be used day in and day out for years before needing to be refitted after it works loose. Look at the Gerber Mk II and its stubby glued in tang. People broke them for sure by abusing them, but I cant seem to find a picture where they failed at that junction and not a shattered aluminum handle or a blade snapped in half. I've never seen one pull out of the socket. That epoxy seems to do the trick.
As for the tangs being thin, if it didnt work they wouldn't have done it. I think it's a combination of knowing how to build a functional blade and a soldier knowing how to use it properly.
I think we put too much stock into tang thickness sometimes. There a plenty of knives that hold up to hard use with minimal tangs. Take the traditional khukuri build with a half tang glued into a wooden handle with a boiled sap epoxy, it can be used day in and day out for years before needing to be refitted after it works loose. Look at the Gerber Mk II and its stubby glued in tang. People broke them for sure by abusing them, but I cant seem to find a picture where they failed at that junction and not a shattered aluminum handle or a blade snapped in half. I've never seen one pull out of the socket. That epoxy seems to do the trick.
Spent some time in South America. The natives were typically very small by U.S. standards but it would be a mistake to assume that they were not strong. A life spent eating only what they had planted/tended/harvested or hunted or fished for and possessing, for the most part, only what they could make for themselves, made them very strong in spite of their size. They were, in fact, amazingly strong, and not just for their size. They could easily outperform someone who was a foot taller but who hadn't lived their subsistence lifestyle.
MutinousDoug
Member
On a road trip to Mexico I made in the early 1970's I passed a group of boys; young adults, mowing a soccer field with machetes. 8-10 of them were about 1/2 way done in the late morning. I was just passing through but wondered when they had started and how long would it take to finish? They were doing a better job of it than my riding mower does of the 3 acres I mow.
Yup. That's how grass gets cut when people can't afford mowers but own machetes. Surprisingly, it's not swinging the machete that wears you out, it's squatting the whole time to keep low enough to get a productive swing and to get results that look good.
I can still hear how "mowing" with machetes sounds in my head. If you're far away, you can just hear the occasional ping when they hit a rock or something harder than a blade of grass. Closer you can hear the blades singing as they go through the grass.
Hadn't thought about that for a long time.
The blades were about 2ft long and the handles were slick black plastic.
I can still hear how "mowing" with machetes sounds in my head. If you're far away, you can just hear the occasional ping when they hit a rock or something harder than a blade of grass. Closer you can hear the blades singing as they go through the grass.
Hadn't thought about that for a long time.
The blades were about 2ft long and the handles were slick black plastic.
Take a look at the book The Crossbow by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey. Somewhere in there, if fuzzy memory is right, is a discussion of 300 lb pull Turkish bows. On page 29 are translations off marble columns, of record distances shot at the "OK Meydan" (Place of the Arrow) with a bow. The distances range from 625 yards, to 838 yards, with a hand pulled bow.
Some of those guys could pull your arms out of your sockets and beat your face, with the icky end.
theotherwaldo
Member
A tang that is under strong tension within a strong, well-fitted handle doesn't have to be all that thick at the pommel.
-As for the archers, the men that went down with the Mary Rose in the 1500s showed the stresses involved in firing 12 aimed shots per minute from 200 pound yew longbows, as you can see in this report.
-And they weren't particularly small men, since those that showed the stresses of professional archers were mostly over six feet tall - like their bows.
-As for the archers, the men that went down with the Mary Rose in the 1500s showed the stresses involved in firing 12 aimed shots per minute from 200 pound yew longbows, as you can see in this report.
-And they weren't particularly small men, since those that showed the stresses of professional archers were mostly over six feet tall - like their bows.
theotherwaldo
Member
-As for cutting grass without a mower, I used a scythe on long grass and a swing-blade for shorter stuff up until recently.
Now it feels too much like work.
Now it feels too much like work.
NoirFan
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Medieval people were not significantly shorter than modern people, about 5'7" for the average man. I would guess that sword tangs were made strong enough for their intended purpose, which is to be a backup sidearm. A knight is generally not bashing a sword into helmets or armor the way modern reenactors do; that's what your poleaxe, lance or mace is for. The sword is for cutting and stabbing unarmored parts of the opponent in the melee when you've lost or dropped your primary weapon, or defending yourself in an unarmored civilian context when it's the weapon you happen to have on you. A thinner tang is probably sufficient for a cloth- and flesh- cutting weapon.
Kookla
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Seems these days blades are judged by how many 2x4's and pallets you can hack apart.
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