What ever happened to the polymer "AR15-like" shotguns like the MKA-191, BR99 and the FR99?

[Solomonson]

What ever happened to the polymer "AR15-like" shotguns like the MKA-1919, BR-99 and the FR99? I'm not even sure how they differ, and if they are made by the same company in Turkey? They were such a big deal for a while, but not so much anymore it seems.

Were/are they decent firearms?

I would have expected them to be selling like cord wood for $199 or possibly $249 by now. I notice some FR-99s on Gun Broker but not a lot.

I am amazed that Ruger has not perfected the design to sell as their own? I do see that Standard Manufacturing is offering the SKO-12 for sale -- their own variant of a shotgun with AR-15 manual of arms.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A good Remington 870 or Mossberg will do the job just fine, with no proprietary parts or magazines made in some factory 6000 miles away where the people don't speak English and could probably care less about long term (o short term) customer support when the thing breaks.

I think most people realize that.

 

[Solomonson]

A good Remington 870 or Mossberg will do the job just fine, with no proprietary parts or magazines made in some factory 6000 miles away where the people don't speak English and could probably care less about long term (o short term) customer support when the thing breaks.

I think most people realize that.

What an odd reply. Would you say the same about shotguns produced by say Beretta?

 

[Demi-human]

I would. I care not for the Berettas. They are not handsome like their pistols. I have seen the internals many times at the range as they don't like to run a long time, at least in Michigan.

When a Beretta needs support, one does not need to know Italian to get it repaired. It seems adolescent to take umbrage with a valid point for a gimmick firearm.

Perhaps the Turks do make a fine shotgun. They do not have a support network to repair them however. This I know from experiance. Legacy firearms distribution was also lacking in people that could understand my "Americanese", or anyone that gave a flying squirrel about my non ejecting over/under.

The Vepr twelves are out there, though you'll need to know the commie book of arms.

Feel free to assail this post too. It seems to be your modus operandi. Just remember, you asked, and @Cooldill didn't say anything disparaging about not speaking English, just that they didn't, however odd you find that.

 

[boom boom]

I suspect that the consumer demand for detachable box magazine fed shotguns is simply not that large. You have some shooting competitions where you can use them but I suspect that hunters simply do not need the extra capacity due to hunting regulations. On urban and suburban indoor ranges, many are very restrictive on shotgun fire if they allow it at all. Self defense doctrines have been de-emphasizing the shotgun in favor of the rifle as well due to recoil which also serves to limit demand.

These AR type shotguns are neither fish nor fowl yet and as a result probably have much less consumer demand making them a niche product. As the generations change, I suspect that newer generations may like these shotguns more if they happen to hunt as they resemble AR-MSR type rifles in look and feel as long as regulators do not clamp down on them.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Boom boom,
If AR shotguns were reliable, priced competitively and shot well I’d consider one (or more). In fact I like the MSR look and ergonomics. What I don’t like is the high prices I’ve seen and the lack of support and growth.

I think the reasons you cite plus I don’t think they’re legal in three gun except for open classes hurts sales which hurt prices and the vicious supply and demand circle.come to think of it, I wonder if even in open classes if they’d be competitive. If not, they’re not improving on what already exists so people won’t chage. Hence another reason for the lack of interest.

 

[Demi-human]

Boom boom,
If AR shotguns were reliable, priced competitively and shot well I’d consider one (or more). In fact I like the MSR look and ergonomics. What I don’t like is the high prices I’ve seen and the lack of support and growth.
Hence another reason for the lack of interest.

This is an excellent summarization. In all honesty I too would like an AR platform twelve gauge. It would be perfect for rabbit hunting in the close woods. I think that the balance would also be better when loaded heavily, with the magazine below the receiver instead of in front, below the barrel.

It is a shame that a reputable company would not take these up and produce a quality firearm. As in, repairable, customizable (AR furniture) and one that will run better than a Maxxus. Though that last part may not be too hard.

P.S. My apologies for waking up on the ornery side of the bed. My liberal teacher sister speaks to me the same way, and did so for the better part of two hours last night. I may have let it out on solomonson this morning, maybe.

 

[Solomonson]

I suspect that the consumer demand for detachable box magazine fed shotguns is simply not that large. You have some shooting competitions where you can use them but I suspect that hunters simply do not need the extra capacity due to hunting regulations. On urban and suburban indoor ranges, many are very restrictive on shotgun fire if they allow it at all. Self defense doctrines have been de-emphasizing the shotgun in favor of the rifle as well due to recoil which also serves to limit demand.

These AR type shotguns are neither fish nor fowl yet and as a result probably have much less consumer demand making them a niche product. As the generations change, I suspect that newer generations may like these shotguns more if they happen to hunt as they resemble AR-MSR type rifles in look and feel as long as regulators do not clamp down on them.

That's probably true enough but for between something like $199.99 and $249.99 I would sure think they could find a boatload of buyers given the AR15's huge popularity and the two firearms sharing a similar manual of arms.

 

[Odd Job]

I have a BR99 and in the beginning I had issues with it:

1) Light strikes
2) Couldn't get a Burris Fast Fire 3 (in the Flat Top mount) sighted in, because I had insufficient elevation adjustment
3) Rubber butt pad was snagging on my clothes when shouldering the gun

I got all of those issues sorted. The first one required a new bolt and some smoothing of machine marks in the receiver. This is a relatively inexpensive shotgun but it is not made to the same standard as an FN or Benelli or Beretta. There may be rough edges.
The sighting issue I cured with a 20 MOA rail. That Burris now works perfectly on that shotgun, it is a great sight for it.
The rubber butt pad I cured with some old fashioned sewing. I took the pad out and sewed a sock on it and then put it back. It now does not snag at all and it does not look out of place either.

I use the gun for practical shotgun here in the UK. Occasionally the bolt will not hold back on an empty mag, but in general I'm happy with the gun. It will accept Browning Invector chokes (the standard version)

 

[boom boom]

That's probably true enough but for between something like $199.99 and $249.99 I would sure think they could find a boatload of buyers given the AR15's huge popularity and the two firearms sharing a similar manual of arms.

If they got the price to be comparable to the Pardner or other low cost shotguns, that would probably open the doors. Getting to that level of mass production efficiency though requires a lot of people wanting to buy. It is a chicken and egg situation.

Demi-Human, a twelve gauge box magazine for rabbit hunting? Really? With a slug there would be massive meat spoilage, with buckshot, you would scatter a lot of the rabbit to the winds, with birdshot, you would get a dose of lead shot in every bite. A .22 LR is much superior for that particular purpose.

A twelve gauge box magazine for population control of nuisance animals would be a useful thing but that is not really hunting. I understand that dove hunting on farms in Argentina is that way or goose hunting in some areas.

I once knew a confirmed deer hunter who was hired by a large farm to eliminate an overpopulation of diseased deer (legally by the way with proper permissions). After doing so, he could no longer go deer hunting as that pleasure was spoiled for him.

 

[Demi-human]

When in the tight pines, jumping brush piles and having tree and shrub killing rabbits scatter all directions, I will challenge anyone to use a twenty two rifle and get one.
Seven or eight target loads are more than plenty to kill bunnies. We usually take first in the tournament. All teams have their game professionally processes and the meat is donated to the local Manna pantry.
A slug for rabbits thats hilarious. And I suppose a thirty inch trap gun for fish.

 

[LoonWulf]

Theres also the legal issues with mag capacity in hunting guns.....atleast in some locals.

Here your limited to 5 rounds in any hunting gun, and i believe 3 is the limit for all water fowl?

I know a few guys who have ar/ak variant shotguns, but without the shooting games they are really just range toys and a few are used for home defense.

Again i WANT one, but not because i have a real use. My o/u is all incan realy use for hunting, and i use PCC for defense

 

[Solomonson]

I have a BR99 and in the beginning I had issues with it:

1) Light strikes
2) Couldn't get a Burris Fast Fire 3 (in the Flat Top mount) sighted in, because I had insufficient elevation adjustment
3) Rubber butt pad was snagging on my clothes when shouldering the gun

I got all of those issues sorted. The first one required a new bolt and some smoothing of machine marks in the receiver. This is a relatively inexpensive shotgun but it is not made to the same standard as an FN or Benelli or Beretta. There may be rough edges.
The sighting issue I cured with a 20 MOA rail. That Burris now works perfectly on that shotgun, it is a great sight for it.
The rubber butt pad I cured with some old fashioned sewing. I took the pad out and sewed a sock on it and then put it back. It now does not snag at all and it does not look out of place either.

I use the gun for practical shotgun here in the UK. Occasionally the bolt will not hold back on an empty mag, but in general I'm happy with the gun. It will accept Browning Invector chokes (the standard version)

Thanks for the actual range report. Did the company you bought it from standby it? Did you have to pay for the new bolt? Thanks.

 

[Solomonson]

If they got the price to be comparable to the Pardner or other low cost shotguns, that would probably open the doors. Getting to that level of mass production efficiency though requires a lot of people wanting to buy. It is a chicken and egg situation.

Not really, no. First, it's not a matter of "efficiency." Whomever makes these polymer shotguns these days (Akdal?) makes all sorts of other firearms. They know how to make guns. Their processes aren't going to change that much if demand increases. If anything they'll be replicated in parallel.

It's also not a matter of "mass production" either. Tight supply chain management and lean production are the names of the game these days.

Finally, any company wanting to sell a product is going to have to make an investment -- including one for manufacturing processes and systems and inventory to fill the chain. I see a very weak attempt.

Conversely I think if Ruger began producing a similar firearm (Ruger is excellent at taking existing designs and either perfecting them or changing them enough to use for their own models) and priced it right, I could see them flying off the shelf -- so long as there was no price gouging.

Finally, these shotgun's competition in the market are not the "Pardner." That's a good point though. I wonder why Remington has not looked at producing something similar or simply buying the line from Akdal?

 

[Odd Job]

Thanks for the actual range report. Did the company you bought it from standby it? Did you have to pay for the new bolt? Thanks.

They did stand by the gun and I didn't pay for a new bolt.
Oh I forgot something: the gun originally came with a defect in the stock: the rear sling swivel was set at an angle because the pilot hole for the screw was drilled skew.
I got a replacement stock.