JTHunter
Member
If possible, you could also try rolling over onto your back then use both hands to shoot upwards at the perp from a "reverse prone" position.
What if...
- Thread starter old lady new shooter
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If possible, you could also try rolling over onto your back then use both hands to shoot upwards at the perp from a "reverse prone" position.
scaatylobo
Member
I kind of guess you actually answered your own question.
You did say "ACTIVE SHOOTER",and to me that means he/she is in the act of taking lives !.
If that is the fact,then you have to have decided in the past how far you will go to save lives,possibly endangering your own.
NONE of that should be decided DURING the loss of life.
A "clear shot" also means to me that you can hit the attacker with no danger of hitting innocents .
And I dare say a shot to the cranium will be unlikely to over penetrate = unlikely is not a sure thing.
But in advance of taking that shot,you should have asked yourself "what is the outcome of NOT taking that shot".
How many will die ?.
MTMilitiaman
Member
As mentioned, lots of variables here. What range and lighting conditions? What is shooter armed with? Does he or she have body armor on?
It is going to have to be a very specific set of circumstances for me to initiate contact with innocent people in the background. Realistically, I would probably focus on getting myself and those around me out of the area, or at least to a covered and concealed location.
That is with a handgun. If I am at my vehicle and I have my AR available, that is a whole 'nother ball game.
It is going to have to be a very specific set of circumstances for me to initiate contact with innocent people in the background. Realistically, I would probably focus on getting myself and those around me out of the area, or at least to a covered and concealed location.
That is with a handgun. If I am at my vehicle and I have my AR available, that is a whole 'nother ball game.
P5 Guy
Member
I carry a pistol for my protection. Maybe I'd cover the exit for others?
I remember a signature line saying something like "My pistol is the starter for this fat guys race to the nearest exit".
Make that my motto too.
I remember a signature line saying something like "My pistol is the starter for this fat guys race to the nearest exit".
Make that my motto too.
scaatylobo
Member
I tried to resist, but I'm tried and it's been a long day...so I've fallen prey to my impulses:
They are called, "Don't Shoot Me" safety banners...really
Mn Fats
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I fire. You said I had a clear shot.
luzyfuerza
Member
I take umbrage at the term "Active Shooter". I go to the range regularly, practice with rifles, handguns, and shotguns, reload, and attend firearms-related training at least annually. I'm also an NRA instructor, and teach firearms safety and proper use regularly. By all accounts, I'm an active shooter.
What the media calls an "Active Shooter" is really an active murderer (something that I am not).
With regard to the OP's scenario (engaging an active murderer with innocents down range) I am in the group that prefers to escape with my loved ones if this can be done safely. I'll engage, though, if I can't get away and the murderer brings the fight to me.
I suggest practicing headshots at varying distances from the kneeling position, using your carry piece, both with and without cover/concealment. The resulting angle reduces risk to downrange innocents. Try this exercise with your favorite mouse gun and also with a larger (but still concealable) pistol in a service caliber. For fun, try using a carbine or sbr. Consider which gun you'd prefer to be carrying in that scenario.
Going to the prone or "reverse prone" position as suggested above probably isn't a good idea; it limits your mobility too much.
What the media calls an "Active Shooter" is really an active murderer (something that I am not).
With regard to the OP's scenario (engaging an active murderer with innocents down range) I am in the group that prefers to escape with my loved ones if this can be done safely. I'll engage, though, if I can't get away and the murderer brings the fight to me.
I suggest practicing headshots at varying distances from the kneeling position, using your carry piece, both with and without cover/concealment. The resulting angle reduces risk to downrange innocents. Try this exercise with your favorite mouse gun and also with a larger (but still concealable) pistol in a service caliber. For fun, try using a carbine or sbr. Consider which gun you'd prefer to be carrying in that scenario.
Going to the prone or "reverse prone" position as suggested above probably isn't a good idea; it limits your mobility too much.
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Officers'Wife
Member
If you have the time and clear area to pull that thing out of your pocket, unfold it and put it on... You have more than enough time to get out of dodge.
scaatylobo
Member
Sorry but if you don't have time.
Or you have had to draw & shoot AND you do know that responding officers & other CCW'ers are enroute.
I know it takes time to put on that banner,or my arm band.
BUT that might stop the rounds that will impact your life [ or death ] forever.
I just add this to my training .
old lady new shooter
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You make a very good point about the term "active shooter", although AFAIK this is a LE term.
While obviously I would prefer to fire from a standing position, if there are people on the other side of the target I like the suggestion several have made to shoot at an upward angle. Kneeling is really really hard for me, I am thinking to find an outdoor range so I can practice lying down... I have practiced with snapcaps but not with live ammo. Being that an old lady lying down just looks like she's trying to avoid getting shot or maybe was already shot, in case the @#$% did happen to look my way the ticket would be to not show the gun until the moment of firing.
luzyfuerza
Member
Great adaptation for your specific situation!
Don't expect to win even if you hit the shooter:
http://www.policemag.com/channel/pa...-fired-palm-desert-california-03-30-1996.aspx
Is 5 enough for carry?
Things to consider when you game plan this in your head and assume your carry the day.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/pa...-fired-palm-desert-california-03-30-1996.aspx
Is 5 enough for carry?
Things to consider when you game plan this in your head and assume your carry the day.
scaatylobo
Member
Typical mistakes made by an LEO.
Thinking that telling a perp to stop will actually work.
Sad that it is EVER the tactics of an experienced LEO.
And as a retiree,I don't go out that lightly armed.
AND even as an LEO, I would not have undertaken such actions.
I taught D/T and know better.
Much better to live to tell,than to die trying what you know if futile.
Technically, such a thing doesn't exist. By definition, innocents are always present in an active killer situation. A miss can hit one, it just depends how bad the miss is.
I'm going to assume that you mean armed with a handgun, not a long gun. I'm also going to assume that by "clear" shot you mean a shot that you are competent enough to make. (I say this because a "clear" shot doesn't mean the same thing for everyone, due to widely varying skill levels.) I'm also going to assume that you're using a high quality expanding bullet. If those three things are the case, the question really becomes, "if your bullet penetrates completely through the bad guy, will it have enough energy to cause serious injury? Based on the opinions of several experts I trust, as well as my own experience with animals, the answer is no, it won't retain enough energy, if it goes all the way through at all.
Realize that in order for kneeling or laying down to make any real difference in a case like that you would have to be extremely close to the bad guy. Also, keep in mind that bullets do not necessarily travel in a straight line once they hit something. They can veer off in somewhat unpredictable directions.
After reading through some more of the responses it seems that perhaps not everyone considers the term, "clear shot" to mean the same thing. To me a "clear shot" is one that I am confident making with an extremely low or zero chance of missing.
old lady new shooter
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BigSteve57
Member
For me it's almost a no-win. I'd be anguished if I shot and injured someone even if I stopped the shooter. I'd be anguished if I did nothing knowing I might have helped. I watch Suzanna Gratia Hupp's video about her experience from time to time. After watching that I swear I'd shoot.
My guess is such situations rarely if ever work out nice & neat.
My biggest worry would be what was mentioned earlier in the thread. Let's say I'm successful for a change. I hit the shooter, shooter is down, no one else is injured, lives are saved, trumpets sound and help is coming. Then the help arrives and they see me with a gun and a bunch of folks shot up. Then they take me out. YIKES!
Edit: changed shop to shot. I hate typos.
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For starters, don't stand there with the gun in your hand. Put it in the holster, which should make it such that the responders don't know you have it till you tell them.
That is excellent advice. While we don't discuss ethnicity and race issue for themselves, I would suggest that readers of minority groups take this as even extra caution. I made that point in an article in the USCCA magazine on the effect of appearance in gun issues a few years ago. There may be higher risk of misinterpretation in such incidents, I'm sad to say. Quite a bit of research suggesting such with various caveats on conditions and training.
SSN Vet
Member
If one is motivated to engage (moral imparative, familial protection, etc...) in a setting with friendly targets behind or around the shooter, I think you are obligated to eliminate/minimize the risk of hitting a bystander.
In most of the scenarios I've pictured myself in, that means exposing myself and closing range.
If one is going to commit to do that:
1. Do it fast.
2. Try to not be noticed (at least not right away).
3. Be charged up enough that your adrenaline will carry you through to successful completion... as you may have to absorb a few hits in the process.
If you're going to risk dying to save others... make sure that they are actually saved before you gasp your last.
In most of the scenarios I've pictured myself in, that means exposing myself and closing range.
If one is going to commit to do that:
1. Do it fast.
2. Try to not be noticed (at least not right away).
3. Be charged up enough that your adrenaline will carry you through to successful completion... as you may have to absorb a few hits in the process.
If you're going to risk dying to save others... make sure that they are actually saved before you gasp your last.
FL-NC
Member
Anything you do, including nothing, can get you killed. Gunfights are violent and chaotic. Individuals need to decide now- not when the time comes- if they choose to be a victor or a victim, then plan and train accordingly, and preferably with a knowledgeable instructor.
This is absolutely critical. And, IMO, a standard CCW class isn't remotely close to sufficient.
FL-NC
Member
No more than a 16 year old with a brand new driver's license is ready for Talladega.
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