What kind of guns do the bad guys carry?

[Jeb Stuart]

Here is some very interesting in one of the worst Gang related area's. Notice there the victims are most shot on the body, etc. What night, what month. These fella's are always out to break a record. It would be interesting to show what firearm was used. Where you live Gunny is just middle school league. These guy are Pro's, heavy hitter club.

The pic below is just a sample, Check out the other statistics that follow. Will they have a winning season in 2019?
https://heyjackass.com/

 

[BigBL87]

Working as a juvenile detention officer, I've noticed we get a disproportionate number of kids caught with 25 ACP handguns. Don't know if it's just our area or a specific illegal dealer, but seems to be a popular juvenile criminal caliber in BFE Illinois.

 

[ATLDave]

Now this list of guns is just from the first of the year. By the end of the year the number will be between 800 and 1000.
You state that these guns are minimum acceptable quality levels, but they also cover what most people have. What would you say were above minimum acceptable levels?

Yep. Most people (quite rationally) buy the minimum acceptable level of anything for their purpose. It's not an insult, even if it kind of sounds that way.

For instance, I use Lee dies for 90+% of my loading. I do this because they are the least expensive dies I can get that will do everything I need them to do. I like them. I could spend more to buy Redding everything - and I have bought a couple of Redding dies for specific purposes - but Lee dies meet my needs for the vast majority of my reloading, so that's what I use. They are at or above minimum acceptable quality levels. Good enough.

Back to the specific topic, I think it's fair to say that criminals don't generally use kilobuck guns. They generally use the least expensive tool that they deem adequate for their purpose and that they can obtain.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Thanks for sharing that list GunnyUSMC - does someone else test fire all the fully semi-automatic Assault Rifle 15's that all the mass shooters use?

Seriously, I was surprised at the lack of any shotguns on the list - is the rationale similar to the one for the lack of revolvers?

Is there a standard for what ammo you use in test firing? Do you fire one round or several?

Are you only test-firing in this case to match casings? I know matching bullets isn't as easy as they make it look on TV but I was under the impression that LE still makes the attempt?

I only deal with the cartridge cases. But I keep the bullets and cases for all the test fires. A firearms Examiner dose compare bullets on a microscope.
I test fire the guns with Winchester or Federal ammo, but I have access to just about anything on the market. I enter the test fire cases into the NIBIN system. I also enter cartridge cases picked up at crime scenes. When I match up a shooting the info is sent out to the detectives, and others as a investigative lead. If they want them confirmed then the evidence is submitted to the lab and a Firearms Examiner compares them. I have a 99.9% confirmation rate.
Shotguns are about the same as 22 and 32 Auto. So few are used.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Yep. Most people (quite rationally) buy the minimum acceptable level of anything for their purpose. It's not an insult, even if it kind of sounds that way.

For instance, I use Lee dies for 90+% of my loading. I do this because they are the least expensive dies I can get that will do everything I need them to do. I like them. I could spend more to buy Redding everything - and I have bought a couple of Redding dies for specific purposes - but Lee dies meet my needs for the vast majority of my reloading, so that's what I use. They are at or above minimum acceptable quality levels. Good enough.

Back to the specific topic, I think it's fair to say that criminals don't generally use kilobuck guns. They generally use the least expensive tool that they deem adequate for their purpose and that they can obtain.

I did not take it that you were insulting anyone, but just wondering what you call above minimum acceptable quality levels. Because in the list there is Glocks, S&W. Ruger. Browning, Remington, Springfield, and KAHR.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Working as a juvenile detention officer, I've noticed we get a disproportionate number of kids caught with 25 ACP handguns. Don't know if it's just our area or a specific illegal dealer, but seems to be a popular juvenile criminal caliber in BFE Illinois.

We don't see that many 25 Autos any more. Juveniles carry all types of guns, 380 amd 9mm most often.

 

[ATLDave]

I did not take it that you were insulting anyone, but just wondering what you call above minimum acceptable quality levels. Because in the list there is Glocks, S&W. Ruger. Browning, Remington, Springfield, and KAHR.

I said "for the most part." But, yeah, I would consider most base-model plastic guns to be "minimum acceptable quality" guns. That's part of their appeal. They work. They don't cost all that much. The S&W's are a good example. Many of those on the list were the SV-series guns... which are cheaper than their M&P line, which are cheaper than their "Pro" or "performance series" variants of the M&P's. Their whole point is to satisfy a minimum acceptable quality buyer.

 

[Gridley]

I only deal with the cartridge cases. But I keep the bullets and cases for all the test fires. A firearms Examiner dose compare bullets on a microscope.
I test fire the guns with Winchester or Federal ammo, but I have access to just about anything on the market. I enter the test fire cases into the NIBIN system. I also enter cartridge cases picked up at crime scenes. When I match up a shooting the info is sent out to the detectives, and others as a investigative lead. If they want them confirmed then the evidence is submitted to the lab and a Firearms Examiner compares them. I have a 99.9% confirmation rate.
Shotguns are about the same as 22 and 32 Auto. So few are used.

Interesting! I can see that all brass would get marked the same way, and thus the manufacturer wouldn't matter, but if, say, a nickel case is recovered do you test-fire a nickel-cased round for comparison? Or is the brass close enough?

Also, couldn't help compile the data you provided and pull in some more:

Total: 83 (left out the three 7.62x39’s)

9mm: 42
40 S&W: 22
380 Auto: 12
45 Auto: 7

I added up the listed pistols by manufacturer, then looked up the total pistol production for each (BATFE 2017 data - #’s do not include revolvers):

Glock: 21; 175,696 (plus ~1.2 million imported)
S&W: 17; 1,032,450
Taurus: 14; 69,123 (plus many imports)
Ruger: 5; 610,692 + 163,519 (two sites listed)
Springfield: 5; 81,377
SCCY: 4; 150,647
BERSA: 3
Hi-Point: 3
Kel-Tec: 3 58,982
Beretta: 1; 57,411
Browning: 1; 50,331
Jennings: 1
Jimenez Arms: 1
KAHR: 1
Remington: 1; 58,450
Sig Sauer: 1; 536,636
Walther: 1; 43,248

Found two major pistol manufacturers (>50,000) that didn't show up in your tested firearms list:

Kimber: 0; 183,858
FN America: 0; 61,510

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics

Couldn't find good data on imports by manufacturer. Anyone have that?

I was interested in the Sig Sauer anomaly (especially because I think they import as well, so their base number should be even higher).

 

[RikSors]

Unbelievable no HiPoint in 9mm used. The year is still young.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Not long ago we had close to 10 guns that were traced back to one woman. She was buying gun for the thugs. I don't think ATF ever went after her. I don't think ATF ever went after her.

I imagine she wasn't given the option to tell her boyfriend or his compadres no. I would think she would be pretty scared.

Even if she was willing, any lawyer would assert that she was afraid for her life if she said no, and would get her off on the notion that she made the purchases under duress.

Right?

 

[labnoti]

Girlfriends get sex, dope, and money out of their relationship with their boyfriend. Why would they be scared to buy him the most bad-ass gun, especially considering it's his money? I'm sure they wouldn't want him to have some lame piece of junk that other bi---s boyfriend was going to sell him when he got a better one. She ain't gonna get caught anyway. None of her girlfriends got caught. Besides if she does, she don't know that dude, and all her guns got stolen.

 

[MistWolf]

...her guns got stolen.

They were all lost in a boating accident.

 

[BigBL87]

We don't see that many 25 Autos any more. Juveniles carry all types of guns, 380 amd 9mm most often.

Ya, that's why it's kinda weird to me. We don't see a crazy big number of them, but definitely more than you would expect given the unpopularity of the round. We don't get them on firearm related charges very often, being a relatively rural county, so they kind of stand out.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Interesting! I can see that all brass would get marked the same way, and thus the manufacturer wouldn't matter, but if, say, a nickel case is recovered do you test-fire a nickel-cased round for comparison? Or is the brass close enough?

Also, couldn't help compile the data you provided and pull in some more:

Total: 83 (left out the three 7.62x39’s)

9mm: 42
40 S&W: 22
380 Auto: 12
45 Auto: 7

I added up the listed pistols by manufacturer, then looked up the total pistol production for each (BATFE 2017 data - #’s do not include revolvers):

Glock: 21; 175,696 (plus ~1.2 million imported)
S&W: 17; 1,032,450
Taurus: 14; 69,123 (plus many imports)
Ruger: 5; 610,692 + 163,519 (two sites listed)
Springfield: 5; 81,377
SCCY: 4; 150,647
BERSA: 3
Hi-Point: 3
Kel-Tec: 3 58,982
Beretta: 1; 57,411
Browning: 1; 50,331
Jennings: 1
Jimenez Arms: 1
KAHR: 1
Remington: 1; 58,450
Sig Sauer: 1; 536,636
Walther: 1; 43,248

Found two major pistol manufacturers (>50,000) that didn't show up in your tested firearms list:

Kimber: 0; 183,858
FN America: 0; 61,510

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics

Couldn't find good data on imports by manufacturer. Anyone have that?

I was interested in the Sig Sauer anomaly (especially because I think they import as well, so their base number should be even higher).

I maybe get 3 or 4 FN guns a year. one or two HKs, Six or 7 Kimbers.
But you also have to look at the availability of high capacity magazines. There are more High capacity mags for Glocks on the market then any other handgun. And the thugs love those 32 round Glock mags. Pro Mag makes them for the M&P and Taurus guns.

Here is a little info on the crimes committed with the listed guns, some may over lap.
(10) were stolen
(4) Att. Murders
(12) With Drug charges
(3) Homicides
(2)Robberies
(9) Felon in poss. of a firearm
(1) DWI
(1) Juv. in poss of a Firearm (he had the SCCY CPX-2)
There were a few that were Agg. Assault and illegal carry .

 

[BigBL87]

Also noticed that CZ didn't show up. Apparently the bad guys haven't gotten in to us firearm hipsters' stuff yet.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Thanks for sharing Gunny. I was surprised at the low count of Stolen guns, and especially the amount of newer guns. The Taurus G2C/PT111 count is revealing. They are essentially the same gun, just 1 is 2+ years old, the other is newer. I would have thought there would be more PT111s than G2C's by a large count.

I also only count 5 or so "junk" guns by my definition. As to not get folks' blood up, I won't list them. I would have expected more.

3 7.62x39 vs 0 .223/5.56? Also surprising, especially if it is not a fluke. The rest of the guns have a high performance/price ratio. I would have suspected more entry-level ARs in the list.

 

[glc24]

IMO, perps don't have a minimum acceptable level. They will take whatever they can get!

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Also noticed that CZ didn't show up. Apparently the bad guys haven't gotten in to us firearm hipsters' stuff yet.

They do show up.
Last year we had two homicides a week apart. In both cases the same color car was seen, at night, drive up to the victim, driver gets out and shoots the victim. He then stood over the victim and emptied his magazine into the victim. I matched up the two shootings. I was asked if I knew what type of gun was used. I told them from the breach face markings that it was most likely a CZ75 or a variant
The shooter was identified through DNA and arrested a few days later. He had already disposed of the gun, but he had bought a CZ75 from a local gun shop a few weeks before the shootings.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Thanks for sharing Gunny. I was surprised at the low count of Stolen guns, and especially the amount of newer guns. The Taurus G2C/PT111 count is revealing. They are essentially the same gun, just 1 is 2+ years old, the other is newer. I would have thought there would be more PT111s than G2C's by a large count.

I also only count 5 or so "junk" guns by my definition. As to not get folks' blood up, I won't list them. I would have expected more.

3 7.62x39 vs 0 .223/5.56? Also surprising, especially if it is not a fluke. The rest of the guns have a high performance/price ratio. I would have suspected more entry-level ARs in the list.

Last year we had a good many AR's, more then AK's. Now we have had shootings this year with AR's, we just haven't gotten our hands on the guns yet.
Once it warms up the shootings will pick up. And when it gets hot, it will get very busy.

 

[Sistema1927]

You are a busy boy. Job security.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Girlfriends get sex, dope, and money out of their relationship with their boyfriend. Why would they be scared to buy him the most bad-ass gun, especially considering it's his money? I'm sure they wouldn't want him to have some lame piece of junk that other bi---s boyfriend was going to sell him when he got a better one. She ain't gonna get caught anyway. None of her girlfriends got caught. Besides if she does, she don't know that dude, and all her guns got stolen.

I have little doubt that you’re right and many if not most significant others performing straw purchasers for gang bangers are willing and just as foolish as the criminal they are buying for. But my point was about Gunny’s comment about the ATF not going after the female purchaser.

If she wasn’t willing, she’s probably too afraid to say no to a bunch of violent felons. If she’s willing, I just wonder if any prosecutor could actually get her convicted, as a justification that she was afraid for her life could probably help her avoid serious repercussions. It really doesn’t matter much for the thread though. I was just curious what someone in law enforcement thought.

Anyway, the gun selections make sense. It’s an affordable way to arm a gang with a lot of those models.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I have little doubt that you’re right and many if not most significant others performing straw purchasers for gang bangers are willing and just as foolish as the criminal they are buying for. But my point was about Gunny’s comment about the ATF not going after the female purchaser.

If she wasn’t willing, she’s probably too afraid to say no to a bunch of violent felons. If she’s willing, I just wonder if any prosecutor could actually get her convicted, as a justification that she was afraid for her life could probably help her avoid serious repercussions. It really doesn’t matter much for the thread though. I was just curious what someone in law enforcement thought.

Anyway, the gun selections make sense. It’s an affordable way to arm a gang with a lot of those models.

The problem with Straw Purchases is that the Fed's don't feel that it is worth there time, unless they have something else to tack on. A Straw Purchase may get a person one year. Now if they can get a store for knowingly allowing Straw Purchases, that's a big chicken dinner.

 

[Elkins45]

I’m curious about the circumstances of the KelTec Sub2000? That and the 7.62x39 guns are the real oddballs on your list.

 

[Bigborgel]

How many of those were stolen vs bought legally by the person using the gun to commit a crime?

I read on one of these forums that 62% of criminal guns were purchased illegally.

 

[Reloadron]

The problem with Straw Purchases is that the Fed's don't feel that it is worth there time, unless they have something else to tack on. A Straw Purchase may get a person one year. Now if they can get a store for knowingly allowing Straw Purchases, that's a big chicken dinner.

During the early and mid 90s my wife and I owned a brick and mortar gun shop in the Greater Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. This was pre BCI checks. Wasn't unusual for a guy to drag in his girlfriend, even back then, and it was obvious who was really buying the gun. Girlfriend totally clueless while the guy is doing the looking and handling. Had a friend out of ATF in Cleveland. He told me to go ahead with the sales and make sure I got good ID like the drivers license with a DL # and as much ID as I could. Often times the buyer would be accompanied by a few friends. I would just pass along everything to my friend.

Had a really classic gun trace once. My friend called and inquired about a gun I had sold maybe 6 months prior. The gun turned up at a crime scene downtown. I checked my book, pulled the 4473 and gave him as well as the local police the information. I remembered the sale only because the buyer was a real nice straight arrow type and a local HS teacher. The gun was a Ruger P90 9mm. Apparently the PD went to see this guy who said yes, he owned a gun and went to get the gun. What the guy really owned at that point was an empty box for a Ruger P90. During a visit his nephew stole the gun but was kind enough to leave the empty box. The guy was not a regular shooter so had not checked on the gun, buried in a closet for quite sometime. Go figure huh?

Ron