What requirements for carry on airplanes?

[Phantom Warrior]

In my Social and Ethical Implications of Computing class today we were talking about high tech scanners that let people see your naked body and other technology issues w/ airline security. From there the conversation progressed to security in general and my prof made an offhand, scoffing remark about the NRA want everyone to have guns on planes. I, of course, took issue and gently made some counterpoints. Essentially, someone may be accidentally injured in a defensive shooting on a plane, but they will be dead for sure if no on resists the terrorist. Also debunked the "Plane blows up if you shoot a window" myth. (Love that episode of Mythbusters).

A decent question was raised. It was more along the lines of the ever ridiculous "Well, the terrorists might be scared off but I'm not sure if I'd feel safer with everyone having guns.", but there is a kernel of truth there. What requirements should we have to avoid "Some drunk guy getting up on the plane and waving his gun around and getting shot by everyone else."? That's a direct quote, by the way.

To summarize, what do you feel should be the requirement for carrying on planes? LEO only? Carry permit plus training? Carry permit only? Breath and a heartbeat?

 

[TallPine]

Well, some of us remember that there was a time, in the 1960s and previously, when passengers could carry anything they wanted under their clothes onto a plane. Few likely did, as for one thing it would have been illegal at most of the departures and destinations. But there was no search or anything to keep them from doing it.

A few notorious hijackings to the enchanted isle changed all that. (obviously, the hijackers carried their weapons on board with no difficulty)

Oh yes, and remember all the high altitude drunken brawls and shootouts that happened back in those days? You don't ....? Well, that's because they never happened

 

[CAS700850]

In my experiences, carrying on a commercial airliner requires (1) LEO only, (2) specific training and certification/qualification for on-board carry, (3) proof of need to carry.

This may not be entirely accurate, but I know for a fact that we have only a handful of officers/deputies who are trained to carry on a commercial aircraft for purposes of extradition of fugitives.

It is my understanding from a friend (F.B.I.) that FBI/Secret Service/U.S.Marshal flyinf for work related reasons may carry on an aircraft without showing any need.

FederalistWeasel, you out there to help out with this one?

 

[MrTuffPaws]

I would have to vote no, only LEO only on planes. That is, unless someone with a CCW went through training on using a firearm on a plane, was restricted to ammo that is government certified for use on airplanes, etc....

 

[Mulliga]

What requirements should we have to avoid "Some drunk guy getting up on the plane and waving his gun around and getting shot by everyone else."? That's a direct quote, by the way.

What's so horrible about that? Sounds like a good way to get rid of drunken idiots.

Seriously, carrying a gun onto a plane is just like carrying a gun anywhere else. If criminals want to do it, they'll find a way, so why disarm those who would follow the law?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I would have to vote no, only LEO only on planes. That is, unless someone with a CCW went through training on using a firearm on a plane, was restricted to ammo that is government certified for use on airplanes, etc....

I'm sure I won't be the last to say this, but where do I sign up? I think if the government certified a course for CCW permit holders and allowed them to carry on flights if they completed it the government would be inundated with applicants.

As to ammunition concerns, I'll summarize what I meant with the Mythbusters remark. A team on a TV show overpressurized a grounded 747 to simulate the pressure differential between the plane and the outside air at cruising altitude. A bullet to a window produced a small hole leaking air. A line of plastic explosive around the window was rather rough on the dummy sitting next to the window (they said he probably would have broken an arm) but didn't affect the rest of the plane. A large chunk of explosive managed to blow a good sized hole in the plane, finally. However, they showed a picture of a 747 from the 80s that had a good portion of the roof just behind the cockpit blown off by a terrorist bomb and still managed to land. Frankly, short of large bombs, I don't think there is a physical threat to the integrity of the airplane from passengers. With the obvious exception of "golden BBs"; lucky shots to a fuel line or engine.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

I think after watching the show AIRLINE fairly regularly I would not want anyone but LEOs armed on an airplane. But then again, I wouldn't mind carrying on an airplane...but I'll gladly sacrifice my carrying to not have the guy next to me carrying.

The major problem that I see with a shootout at 35,000 feet is the huge mass of people in a confined space. Nearly any way you draw the angles, a through and through has a high probability of finding someone else.

 

[Stickjockey]

CAS700850,

Your friend is right, with the addition of Federal Air Marshalls (although U.S. Marshall would cover them as well). State may also carry, as long as they have a letter on Department letterhead and are on official business.

My thoughts:

If a person has a CHL, and it is honored at both the point of departure and the point of arrival, then that person should be allowed to carry enroute.

I could be talked into a bit of training concerning the specifics of defense on aircraft, though.

 

[gazpacho]

Remember Aloha Airline Flight 243? Yeah, a .38 special pinhole in the side a plane can bring it down, but if you can manage to rip off about 20 feet of the roof before that happens, you'll be safe.

Also:

I would have to vote no, only LEO only on planes. That is, unless someone with a CCW went through training on using a firearm on a plane, was restricted to ammo that is government certified for use on airplanes, etc....

I believe the largest ammo government certified for use on airplanes is 105mm. Not certain how you would get it onto the plane though. (just messin' with ya! )

 

[Double Maduro]

What would the airline specific training consist of?

Rule 4--Be sure of your target and all beyond it.

That pretty much takes care of colateral damage.

I go to the airport quite often to pick up friends and family. Being a little anal about meeting people I usually get there early and end up waiting at the gate for 15 minutes or more.

The safety procedures are a joke. They are put there to make us feel safe. If a terrorist wants to get a weapon on board they will. I have seen so many ways to get around the safety screen that it isn't funny anymore.

As an innocent bystander, I would much rather run the risk of being shot by a good guy/gal than killed, along with the other passengers, by a bg.

But this whole discussion is accedemic anyway. The gov will never let us common people carry on airplanes. They will keep us safe.

DM

 

[saltydog]

I say "none of the above is ever going to happen!" We live in a "so called civilized society-->funny" I say X-ray or strip search people and let the Govt be the Govt and let sheeple be the sheeple like its intended.

 

[MrTuffPaws]

I am not worried about explosive decompression. I have seen the Mythbusters, and know that it will not happen. I am more worried about over penetration and ricochets that may harm the other passengers.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The strict constructionist in me really wants to say "Alive and breathing," but the realist in me says it should be (under the current legal climate) anyone who has a valid CCW permit from any state should be allowed to carry on airplanes.

I don't think alcohol should be served on planes anyway, so my answer to that part of your question is ... stop serving alcohol altogether. Gun or no gun, drunks make lousy seat neighbors.

 

[Intune]

I am more worried about over penetration and ricochets that may harm the other passengers.

Do you worry about this a lot on the crowded subway or in a packed movie theater when I am right behind you armed? I am more worried about the two or three evil folks who managed to bypass all that "ironclad" security and are hellbent on surpassing the 3,000+ 9/11 mark.

 

[citizen]

OK, I've given this some thought.....
first off ideally every state would agree to recognize other's ccw (like dr.lic.)
then, sheeple being sheeple, I'd rather be a sheep dog or shepherd; capable of minding the flock from wolves, and willing to train accordingly. NO, I don't want the responsibility of a LEO; beyond me. I DO want the "right" to defend myself, however. I doubt this will happen, though I do enjoy dreaming!!

 

[41mag]

Do you worry about this a lot on the crowded subway or in a packed movie theater when I am right behind you armed?

If you shoot someone @ either locale they are 10-30 minutes from care.

@ thirty thousand feet the wait in line for insurance approval is a bit longer.

On topic?CCW on the ground=CCW in the air.*

*if,as was mentioned,both ends approve CCW.

 

[TallPine]

Ok, after thinking this over some more, I agree that there should be some requirements for carry on airplanes:

For instance, 9mm or 38 special should be the minimum required caliber.

Anything less than that just doesn't have enough stopping power against those little old ladies trying to hijack the plane with their knitting needles.

 

[what42]

I'm a big fan of allowing people to carry on planes. Realistically I don't think the government will ever allow carry of firearms. I would really like to see them quit checking for knives though. If a decent number of people had been at least armed with knives, the terrorists of 9/11 would never had been able to take over a plane with just a boxcutter. I know that if I saw a man walking toward the cockpit with a boxcutter my kershaw folder would be out of my pocket very quickly.

 

[saltydog]

Hey, I'm also a big fan of allowing people to carry on planes but it ain't going to happen. To many nervous sheep even among the CCW people, let alone Govt regulation changes. Look how long it to the Govt to approve carry for the Airline pilots let alone us peasents.

 

[Jim K]

At this time, I don't think anyone, except an Air Marshal, can carry aboard a plane. As of now, I don't think any pilots have been certified for even keeping a gun in the cockpit, though I could be wrong about that.

The "explosive decompression" from a buller or even a whole magazine full is just nonsense, and always has been, although the Brady Campaign (aka "Friends of Bin Laden") brought it up again in opposing arming pilots. That Aloha aircraft was torn apart by a long standing and extensive weakening of the metal at a seam, not by a single small hole.

Jim

 

[landon74]

My whole issue is, if you're not going to let me carry my CCW piece, allow me to carry my pocket knife, while it is not equal to a pistol, I like my chances better with my Voyager than with my bare hands....

And if no pocket knife, at least allow me the dignity of some nail clippers....

 

[Standing Wolf]

My Colorado permit to carry concealed hand guns includes all the requirements necessary.

 

[Zundfolge]

I think we're looking at this wrong ... I don't want to carry on a plane because I think I might have to fend off a hijacker ... that's a one in a billion event regardless of the level of security and regardless of whether or not I am allowed to carry.

I want to carry on a plane because I'm going to get off that plane in a strange city, far from home and I'm more worried about being robbed in the parking lot of the airport, or walking from my hotel to a restaurant a block away, or any other number of places in the city I fly to ... to heck with hijackers, that's like worrying about being struck by lightning on a clear day.


So if I have to check my sidearm with the stewardess and retrieve it when we land, fine ... just let me CCW to and from the airport, regardless of where that airport is (just like I can drive to and from the airport on my Colorado drivers license)

 

[brian roberts]

(sigh) i just remember the times(1968) when i took my 8-3/8 M29(in the factory presentation case) & put it under the seat, & flew to new york. don't remember any inflight gunfights then, must'a been asleep, long flight, y'know.

 

[41mag]

Zundefolge,that's a most excellent point!