What would you do?

[Keith]

I'm not clear on the situation here. Is only one of the three armed? If so, I'd shoot him dead.

As for legal technicalities, I'd argue that whenever some armed robber is waving a gun about, everyone present is in imminent danger. I mean, do you think the robber is going to make a formal announcement before he begins shooting? "OK, I'm going to begin shooting now - first YOU, then YOU, then the lady over there, then...". It makes no sense to wait until he shoots first.

I'll take my chances with a jury.

If all three are armed, that changes everything. Obviously, you aren't going to be able to engage all three without getting yourself, and likely some of the bystanders, shot.

Keith

 

[Sisco]

Talked with a LEO this afternoon about the incident. He said it was a shotgun, barrel & stock cut down very short. Same guys also hit a Dollar General store, appear to be a little sharper than your average gang banger types. Cops suspect these guys go in with a plan, more than likely have scoped the places out and hit when opportunity was the best; few customers, plenty of cash.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Which brings up another interesting point.

If they have a plan are they more or less dangerous than the more genral spur of the moment type robbery?

I think given how most Pizza huts are set up, you are not in a good position to engage anyone who might be in the cashier/till area of the restaurant. You have high back booths and the salad bar and the customer seating (hi backed) all preventing you from getting a good sight line on the activities happening near the cashier.

If you stand up to get a better view you have just become a bullet magnet for a potentially hyped up individual (s) who might shoot first and ask questions later. Given how fast a robbery goes down, you are playing catchup all the way and probably won't be in position or able to stop the initial shooting or robbery, but may be able to stop further injury.

Each situation must be evaluated on it's own merits, that and picking a seat near the fire door probably won't hurt..

Officer there was three individual who looked like........

OR

We have his particulars, you can take the body away......

OR

We are here to present this award to........................

 

[Sisco]

Wife & kids still think it's odd that I will not sit with my back to the door.

 

[PUMC_TomG]

Okay here's what I'd do at the West Lafayette Pizza Hut on 52... (so all Purdue ppl can see where I'm coming from...)

First off the cash area is around a wall from the seating area... so I may not even notice what is goin down...

I always sit with facing the door... which there are two.. inline with each other...

So when I noticed there was a situation I would draw my weapon very stealthily and keep it out of sight under the table or behind the cloth... I always sit to the outside... so my weight would be ready to shift to the center of the restaurant to take cover behind the salad bar... or the big fireplace depending on how deep in the restaurant I am...

I would not bring my weapon up to fire until I thought that my life was about to be in danger... most likely by the armed assailant waving the weapon or myself or my date's general direction or making threats to kill people, or god forbid actually start firing.

From there I would MOVE! to cover, SHOOT the threats in descending order of priority, and COMMUNICATE to any other friends who were packing or to my date to keep her head down, etc. Then we'd call the cops, and I'd call my lawyers.

BTW, If i was at the restaurant with Chris Rhines... I'd let him have the outside of the booth... the kid is good!

Oh yeah, let me reiterate... I would try to stay out of it as much as possible... but if the SHTF... those would be my first tactical thoughts... like Chris and alot of others said.... it's mostly important to be a good witness...

Height/weight/clothes/accents/features/weapons/shoes/vehicle/mannerisms/etc. Remember it ALL...

 

[GhostShooter]

I would be a good witness until it reached the point where I thought they were going to kill myself, my family, or anyone in the store. Let'em have the money but when they are going to start shooting people it's time to step in. As for when that point is reached in this scenario you would have to be there and determine that for yourself. Preacherman you had mentioned head shots I was always told to shoot COM?

 

[JPM70535]

ITS ONE OF THE PLACES YOU CANNOT CARRY CONCEALED.

Here in Florida if a restaurant derives less than half of its revenue
from the sale of alcohol, you are permitted to carry.
That being said, I think that knowing there were multiple BGs,the prudent thing to do would be to sit tight and see how the situation developes. If no direct threats are made to do bodily harm, let them take the money (Its not yours). If the BGs threaten violence and have displayed the means to do so then there are muliple decisions that have to be made.
1. Are you capable of taking on multiple BGs at the same time?
2. Is your line of sight to the BGs unrestricted?
3. Are there INNOCENTS within your field of fire?
4. Can you be sure of neutralizing the BGs before they can inflict harm to either you or the patrons or employees?
If you answer no to any of these questions then if you take action,you are just about guaranteed to wind up in a big pile of doodoo. My solution would be to wait and unless the BGs threatened me or mine directly, I would try to be a good witness after the mess was over.

 

[VaughnT]

What I was taught in Legals was simply:

Deadly force, or the threat of deadly force (brandishing your CCW/Duty weapon), is only justified when any person of reasonable firmness would agree that there was imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury (rape is considered grave bodily injury in some circumstances).

Armed robbery is not justification for the use of deadly force unless there is strong reason to believe that the robbers are willing and able to do harm. The money is insured and will be replaced. Unless the robbers state clearly that they are going to kill people. Otherwise, do not engage. Be a good witness.

You have no idea how many "assitants" the robbers might have in the crowd. That nice fella in a suit might be a "wing man" for the robbers, ready to drop anyone that pulls some hero stunt.

Bottom Line: The money is replaceable. People are not. If, and only if, there is a reasonable belief that death or grave injury is imminent can you use deadly force.

 

[jrhines]

I'll say the kid is good...

PUMC_TomG, how right you are, just look at his lineage!

(What do you mean, "Dreadful partisanship"?)


J Rhines
Seneca, MD

 

[Chris Rhines]

Careful guys, if I get a big head I might think that I won't need to train anymore...



- Chris

 

[PUMC_TomG]

Oh you better keep training...

I'm gonna catch ya if you don't!!!

 

[sonoranjack]

In Tucson AZ a couple of years ago. 2 punks ordered & eat pizza at Pizza Hut just before closing. When they were done they decided to rob the joint. Now I don't remember the details. If 1 of the employes owed 1 of the punks money or 1 of the employes new the robber/punks. What I do remember is the robber/punks murdered everyone in the joint. Pizza hut sells beer & it's illegal to have a handgun in a joint that sells alcohol in AZ. So a law abiding citizen wouldn't have his handgun in a joint that serves alochol. So that could be a problem. But this discusson shouldn't be about the joint. But what to do durring a robbery. In AZ it's legal to use deadly force to prevent an armed robbery. But does that mean it's tacticly sound. Not always. Staring a gunfight could injure/kill inocent citizens. I would only use deadly force if a BG by action demonstrated his willingness to use deadly force against an individual or me. So if the BG robs the joint let em. If during the couse of the robbery the BG trys to hurt/kill someone then use deadly force. My plan would be to try to get out of the joint being robbed. That means get me & mine out the nearest exit. I would use deadly force if anyone tried to prevent my exit.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Am I or another person threatened with imminent physical harm?

If not, hey, have a good time with my credit cards, they'll be canceled within the next 10 minutes.

If I am?

Then the situation plays out as it plays out.

 

[Island Beretta]

Guys,

Ever wonder why an armed robbery sentence is harsher than plain robbery??? Well, this is because an armed robbery carries with it an intention to arm..if you are in that store you are in grave danger of bodily arm and is justified to act!!

Threats can be implied or explicit..this is the same reason for example if you are involved in a shooting to holster your gun because the police might just shoot you when they arrive on the scene thinking you are a threat..Unfortunate but legal!!

The problem with acting in such a situation is that your situational assessment and/or reaction may be wrong (and this is where the law can get you).. so you fire a shot and hit an innocent bystander instead or one of the BGs was right beside you and you did not know and he kills you as you make your move..THAT'S A TOUGH ONE!!

I know of situations where robberies occur and a LEO or civilian carrying do nothing, the robbers start to search patrons, sees the gun and shoots them..

I have been in a robbery where one of the robbers/gunmen spots me, accuses me of being a police 'bwoy', searches me, does not find a gun and tells me 'I am lucky'. At that time I did not carry a gun.

LISTEN, CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON IS A BIG RESPONSIBILITY AND WE NEED TO GET SOME SERIOUS TRAINING TO ENSURE THAT WE KNOW WHERE WE STAND AND ENHANCE OUR CAPABILITIES!! From the comments I have seen here I strongly recommend more training.

All the best,
Island B.

 

[JPM70535]

In Florida you can carry into a restaurant where alcohol is served as long as less than 50% of its revenue is derived from same.

This scenerio has so many variables that there is no one right answer, other than to say that any action taken on my part would be based solely on the actions of the BGs.

As a retired LEO my inclination would be to take action against the BGs at the first hint that they intended to harm the clerks or any one in the store. The problem with this, and the reason I would be hesitant to do so is that #1, there are multiple BGs
(actual # unknown for certain) #2 Stress levels elevated,adrenelin pumping, (both me and BGs) #3. Clerks and customers scared witless.

If I take action, the following has to be taken into account.
1. Do I know for sure how many BGs are there?
2. Can I take all the BGs without causing harm to the GGs?
4. Will the GGs panic and get between me and BGs?
5. Will my first magazine do the job? (chances for reload slim)

IMHO the best course of action is to sit tight and only interfere if the BGs actually harm one of the GGs .
Otherwise just be a good witness.