What's the most powerful (yet safe) .357 load for S&W 65 and 13?

[Colden]

I have a pair of K-frame Smith & Wessons--M65 (stainless) and M13 (nickeled)--both have 4" heavy barrels. If you could, please help me sort out a few questions I still have.

1. Which is stronger for the purposes of *very* hot .357 loads? I suspect the M13 is a bit stronger due to being carbon steel. For what it's worth, both are older models in good shape, although my M13 is actually nicer: it's pinned and recessed. I don't know if that is of any real relevance to strength.

2. What's the most powerful factory load I can use in these without fear of hurting the frames? Seems like a silly question, but what I've read consistently suggested that K-frames aren't all that strong. Your educated opinions would be very helpful.

3. An extension on the previous question: For maximum penetration, is it best to choose a flat-point hard cast lead bullet in either 158gr, 180gr or 200gr? Which weight is the best? Again, any links to factory loads I should try?

I have more questions that are basically variations on this theme, but perhaps I should wait until I have a few responses.

Thanks!

 

[4thHorseman]

No one has replied so I'll give your questions a shot.

Regardless what rumors you have heard, K frames hold up well to full house loads. Many people including myself have been shooting full power in K frames for a long time, (40 years) without a problem.
I am sure though some guy has shot 50,000 rounds though one and may have a problem, but for the most part, you'll probably never encounter any problems.
The 158gr would give you better penetration, but ususually the 125gr is recommended for defense because of it's larger recovered diameter. Usually the 125gr has excellent penitration almost 13-14 inches with a huge crush cavity. The 357 125 is the standard by which other personal defence rounds are measure against.
Since most loads have a standard SAAMI (I believe that's right) pressure rating they will be safe for you gun. Ammo manufacturers go by this standard.
You have some nice revolvers and I would strongly recommend you put them through the paces they were made for. Take them out, shoot them and enjoy their abilities. After all, isn't that why you got them?

 

[Preacherman]

Do a search on the subject - there have been several threads dealing with the topic.

In my 3" Model 13 and Model 65, and my 4" 65's, I've standardized on the Winchester Silvertip 145gr. JHP load. Less flash and blast (and less wear on the gun) than the 125gr. loads, very accurate, and excellent "street" stopping results.

 

[Colden]

I guess I should have specified hunting-type ammunition as opposed to lighter defense rounds. That's why I mentioned heavy 200gr rounds. I wanted more opinions regarding how strong or weak K-frames really are.

Edited: Please explain why lighter bullet hot loads do more damage to the frame than heavier bullet hot loads?

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been shooting the new ultra-hot Buf. Bore 180 grainers with my Model 13 with no problems at all. I asked around at the gun stores and the consensus is that only the very small hot rounds give any problems.

 

[Preacherman]

Cosmoline nailed it. The very hot lightweight loads produce way more flash and blast (although less felt recoil) than the heavier bullets. This is what causes forcing cone erosion and flame-cutting of the top strap. A heavier load typically produces much lower velocities, and rather less hot gas.

In a 4" barrel, you won't develop optimum velocities with the heavy loads, but I think Cosmoline's suggestion of the Buffalo Bore 180gr. load is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice. There's also the Georgia Arms 158gr. "Deerstopper" load - see here; or Cor-Bon's 180gr. and 200gr. loads - see here.

 

[JNewell]

Fed also sells 180 gr "Castcore" loads (I think it's their "VitalShok" line, which is limited to one each heavy hard cast load in .357, .41 and .44 Mag). I shoot these in a 66, and the 300/44s in a SBH. Very good accuracy and penetration.

 

[moxie]

Just curious. Do you actually use these guns for hunting? I'm wondering why you would use relatively light and small guns for this purpose, when they are really designed for self defense. Typically, N-frame S&Ws (Model 27 in .357 Mag) are considered more useful (more accurate/less recoil on average) for hunting than the K-frames. Hot 200 grain loads are really going to bite when fired out of a K-frame. Regarding wear and tear. Use a gun within safe limits all you want. If it wears out get it fixed or replace it. Don't worry. My opinion.

 

[Colden]

Not hunting on purpose at all, but if I happen to be in the forest/mountains I would like to carry something powerful in a small reliable frame with a load that penetrates should the need to defend myself against animals suddenly arise.

Edited: So, which is stronger, a nickeled carbon steel M13 (pinned/recessed) or a stainless M65 (not pinned or recessed), both in equally good condition?

 

[JNewell]

Moxie, I was going to give the answer that Colden gave.

M13 vs M65: my hunch based on looking at a lot of S&W revolvers over a long period is that the carbon steel guns do hold together a little better over the long haul, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone else say so in writing. On the other hand, stainless is better in the weather, and remember that most of what goes wrong with these guns can be fixed without too much heroics and fairly reasonable costs. Lead bullets at even hot .357 velocities would seem to be really unlikely to damage the forcing cone. I'd guess the most you'd be looking at is some initial increase of cylinder endplay, which can be addressed with the Power Custom shims. Kuhnhausen even opines that installation of these shims is likely to keep endplay from recurring, IIRC.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've found that a K frame size .357 is the biggest thing that stays on my hip in the middle of the mass hysteria and sun-drenched insanity that is the salmon season in South Central. Last summer it got to the point where at midnight my roommate would suddenly charge into my hut and announce that she had a vision about Silvers at such-and-such pool (the one five miles through heavy bear-laden scrub) and off I'd go until "dawn" On a work day!

Big .44's and my old Casull just get tossed aside in such conditions, but a nice Security Six or Model 13 will stay put. My main defense is either a slug gun or Mosin carbine, but as always they get set down on the bank, I walk off after some four foot shadow I thought I saw in a deep pool and the next thing I know I'm on the other side of the stream and there's a bear sniffing my rifle. You have to be prepared for these things when your mind is gone.

 

[moxie]

Colden,
Ah, that clears it up. The two guns you mention are fine for that purpose. Keep in mind that these fixed sight guns are regulated for 158 gr. bullets. If you use the 180-200 gr. heavy bullets and/or hot loads as you mentioned, they will likely shoot considerably high. So be sure to practice with the load you choose to carry before going afield so you can compensate appropriately.

 

[HSMITH]

I shoot what could be considered nuclear loads through my K-frames all the time. Most of them are 125 JHP, and a censored charge of H110. Lets just say I crunch powder when seating 125 grain bullets loading to a 1.590" OAL ....... Fire BOOOOOMMM and recoil like you wouldn't believe. Most people assume it is a Casull when I shoot them. Cases are snug, primers are showing hints of cratering and flattening. It is a MAXIMUM load in my gun, and they have NEVER been shot in another gun. For a new/different gun I drop by at least 10% and work up from there. I have one M19 with over 1000 of these super hot loads through it and another 7K+ magnums of varying intensity through it. This particular gun has over 35K rounds total through it. It is ready for a trip to the Dr but is in no way, shape of form unsafe, but I figure it has earned it.

I have some Blue Dot loads with 110's and 125's that scare people at the range too. Again censored charges, terrific fireballs and recoil.

My point, roundabout as it may seem, is that the K-frame is capable of sustaining THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of the heaviest loads possible within normal pressure limitations in 357 magnum cartridges. The K-frame is far from weak, and if you hurt one with pressure you had to work at it.