What's up with Bullseye for .45 ACP?

[RavenK]

I'm not exactly new to reloading for handguns, but mostly practice loads for .45 acp and a few custom SD bear and steel loads. Anyway, I have just noticed something that is making me wonder if I have my hat on right.

Did I just make it to class late, or is the data for bullseye with 230 grain FMJ loads all over the place?

Speer#7 lists 5.7 max for their 230 TMJ @ 840 fps

Lyman #2 lists 5.3 gr max @ 878 fps for a Remington 230 FMJ

Alliant themselves give 5.0 gr with a 230 FMJ @ 900!!!
(albeit with with a rather short 1.190 OAL).

I know data varies from case to primer, case length etc., but this seems a little extreme to me.

Bullseye measures to perfection in my Dillon, so I am just looking for a nice moderate GI-type load (230 gr FMJ, around the standard 1.230 to 1.275 OAL at about 830 fps).

Does anyone out there have a bullseye load that you have chronographed and seems safe to you? (Or maybe just tell me what I am missing?)

Thanks!

 

[gaucho]

I finally got my colt Gold Cup to shoot using MBC 200 gr LSWC, cci LP primers 1.255 OAL .471-472 crimp and 5,0 to 5.3 grains of Bullseye.

 

[Slamfire]

It could be lot to lot variation of the powders. If you have older loading books with HP-38 and W231, look at that maximum charges for the same bullet, same cartridge. I have seen differences of at least half a grain. It was not until recently that it was revealed that HP38 and W231 are the exact same powder, so the differences in pressure is the difference between lots.

I developed loads with Bullseye with lead bullets in the 45 ACP. I wanted to keep things at 800 fps with my 230's. A good load was 4.5 grains. I tested that with three different lots of Bullseye made in three different decades. All shot well.

Bullseye shooters have told me 5.0 grains is a Ball equivalent with FMJ's.

As you can see with my SIG data, my loads were 50 fps slower in that pistol

[SIZE="3"]
[B]Kimber Custom Classic [/B]
200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300 
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"	
11-Sep-05 T = 88 °F
	
Ave Vel =	738.9					
Std Dev =	10.34					
ES	37.98					
High	755.8					
Low	717.8					
N =	32					
						
						
200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WLP  	
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"	
21-Jun-06T = 97 °F
	
Ave Vel =	748.2					
Std Dev =	10.86						from web postings	
High	763.2					
Low	721.7					
N =	22					
Mild recoil, very accurate, excellent target load.						
						
		 	
			 	


230 LFN Bull-X 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"	


8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =	643.6				
Std Dev =	14.07			
ES =	63.63			
High = 	679.9		 		
Low =	616.3				
N =	32
				 
      shot a little high Pistol cycled each shot



230 LFN Bull-X 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"		
		

8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =	715.9				
Std Dev =	11.45			
ES =	48.32		 		
High = 	742.9		 		
Low =	694.8				
N =	32				 
shot a little low

					



230 gr LRN 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
	
29-Jan-06 T = 68  °F	
Ave Vel =698.8				
Std Dev =10.19		
ES =36.33		 		
High = 713.5				
Low =677.1				
N =28
				 
V. Accurate
		
230 gr LRN  4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
21-Jun-06 T = 97  °F	
	
Ave Vel = 805.2		
Std Dev =11.4		
ES=54.08		
High=836.9		 
Low=782.8		 
       N =32


230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye lot BE532 (80's mfgr)  Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
16-May-09  high 83  °F	 
					
Ave Vel =	782.7				
Std Dev =	13.41				
ES =	52.05				
High = 	815.5				
Low =	763.4				
N =	28				
					
					
230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250"  taper crimp469"
16-May-09  high 83  °F	.
					
Ave Vel =	805.2				
Std Dev =	38.07				
ES =	136.9				
High = 	912.4				
Low =	775.5				
N =	24				
					




230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye lot 827 (60's/70's powder) Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
16-May-09	 high 83  °F	
					
Ave Vel =	822.9				
Std Dev =	14.14				
ES =	55.24				
High = 	853.7				
Low =	798.4				
N =	26				

[B]SIG SAUER P220 	[/B]		
					
					
200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300			
23-Apr-11	T = 75 °F				
Ave Vel =	689.1				
Std Dev =	19.13				
ES =	73.13				
High =  = 	717.9				
Low =	644.8				
N =	15				
					
230 LRN  4.5 grs Bullseye  (98&05) mixed brass WLP OAL 1.25"  taper crimp 0.469"
23-Apr-11	T = 72 °F				
Ave Vel =	749.6				
Std Dev =	15				
ES =	48.15				
High =  = 	776.7				
Low =	728.6				
N =	16	[/SIZE]

 

[GooseGestapo]

The reason for the variance in the Bullseye data is that it has been around so long. It was one of the first smokeless pistol powders ever marketed.

It's been around that long because it's that good.

Secondly, the differences in bullet design. The length of the bearing surface of the bullet makes a significant difference in engraving forces which affects the pressure curve of the powder burn, and increases overall chamber pressures. Also, jacketed vs. cast bullet makes a difference, and thickness of jacket material/composition too. IE: copper plated steel jackets.

Lastly, there are differences between lot#s of powder. I've shot many, many pounds of Bullseye shooting NRA PPC competiton, and have seen minor variations in lot#s. Not as much as I've seen with HP38/Win231 and other's, but I've seen differences........ Usually minor differences in weight of measured charges, ie: a measure that nominally throws 2.7gr might throw 2.6 or 2.8 depending on particular lot# of powder......

 

[Galil5.56]

I have found for at least the last 30 years, Hercules/Alliant data has been all over the map, but the current data falls more into line with my own testing.
Current Alliant data for .45 Auto with a 230 grain TMJ bullets and Bullseye shows a max charge of 5.7 grains, and 840 fps from a 4.4" barrel. I think you will find when chronographed, 5.3 grains of Bullseye and a Rem/WW 230 grain FMJ RN, give or take a 1/10 will get you the "GI" spec load you want from a 5" 1911.

An example of results that especially make you wonder, concerns their 9mm data over the years using 125 grain FMC bullets seated to 1.15":

1995: 6.2 grains 1170 fps 31,300 psi
1996: Same
2007: 4.9 grains 1077 fps 31,745 psi

1.3 grains MORE Unique results in 445 psi less pressure in 2007.

I know and understand the variables that can go into testing, and Alliant tells me Unique has the exact same performance spec as it ever has since first made (even the "improved" version) when I asked... So, so much for that part of the variable, and almost makes you think they used "Unique" from recalled #8 drums that actually had Bullseye in them, packed around 2005! FWIW, my chronograph says 124 grain Rem/WW FMJ bullets driven by 6.2 grains of Unique gets 1188 fps avg from my Beretta M9.

Not that I rely on an accurate chronograph as a pressure indicator, but do find it invaluable for working up loads as a component of safe development to a desired fps, and proving, not guessing what a load does.

 

[LiveLife]

It is for these reasons why I tend to rely more on "current" published load data by powder manufacturers than older load data from bullet manufacturers.

I reference other load data only when I can't find current load data from powder manufacturers.

 

[rcmodel]

Speer TMJ's have a plated jacket, and load data is necessarly different.

New Alliant data says 5.7 Bullseye is MAX with a Speer TMJ plated bullet.
Old Alliant data says 5.0 Bullseye is MAX with a conventional cup & core FMJ bullet.

But, 4.6 Bullseye with a 230 FMJ-RN seated 1.266" to 1.271" OAL is the long time standard factory duplication load.

It will shoot to the same sight setting, and stack brass in the same pile with GI hardball ammo.

rc

 

[Mal H]

As bds implied you should use more current data and then do a comparison. The data may not be "all over the place" for the same bullet and powder if you do.

Speer #7 is from the 60's if I recall (my old copies are two stories away and I'm basically lazy).

Lyman #2?!! How old is that? Do you use white gloves to turn the ancient pages?

The reason powder recommendations change is that, first of all, measurement procedures and instruments improve over time. The older CUP method of measuring pressure has been mostly replaced by actual pressure measurements using modern instruments and sensors. Some of the older loads were real eye openers when the true pressures being developed were known.

Secondly, all manufacturers (powder, bullet, ammo, etc.) are getting more cautious with the data they publish.

 

[ambidextrous1]

5.7 grains of Bullseye is way too much for a 230 grain bullet.

I'm currently loading 4.7 grains of Bullseye for a 185 grain plated bullet, for target loads.

If you have a chronograph, develop a load that produces 800 to 850 fps with a 230 grain bullet. The 'popular' COL for a 230 grain RN is 1.250".

 

[918v]

I like 5 grains under a 230 FMJ. 5.7gr seems too hot to me.

 

[Galil5.56]

Not sure what factory standard load 4.6 grains of Bullseye duplicates, but 4.6 grains from any reasonable lot using a WW/Rem .451", 230 grain GI FMJ RN, loaded to 1.265", will not get 830-850 fps "GI Hardball" velocity in a 1911.

My 9mm example purposely used psi-to-psi comparison (not CUP-to-CUP, or any hokey attempt to futilely extrapolate CUP-to-psi) from the same testing source. One great resource if you can find it is Midway LoadMAP. Regardless of thick plated like CCI TMJ/Gold Dot, or traditional cu jacketed lead core FMJ, max .45 ACP loads with Bullseye remain very similar with regard to pressures produced. For example:

Rem 230 FMJ RN 5.8 grains max 21k psi

WW 230 grain FMJ RN 5.8 grains max 21k psi

Speer 230 grain TMJ 5.7 grains max 21k psi

All gotten by Piezo psi testing using a 5" test barrel, staying within the SAAMI max avg pressure of 21,000 psi with whatever set of tolerance their components had during testing.

 

[EddieNFL]

Lyman #2?!! How old is that? Do you use white gloves to turn the ancient pages?

Well, I was using #45 in the mid-'70s and we're up to #49 some 35 years later. I'm guessing #2 was written with a quill pen.

 

[EddieNFL]

Going through some stuff this morning and found a copy of #42. Second printing, September 1960.

Bullseye is listed at 4.9 max, velocity of 825 with a 230 FMJ.

 

[FROGO207]

I have some older lots of propellant and use the published data of that era for loading this. With modern lots I use current data. That said it is fun to try some old Hi-Vel #2, WW #230 FP, and old Du Pont or IMR propellant with 2 digit lot numbers that I know are older than I am that still work fine. I have noticed that some of them are "weaker" than the data indicates but still are working well. I think that the older canisters that I display on the shelves like my 11 oz paper can of Hercules Bullseye (without a lot # BTW) for example, are worth more than a new full can of the stuff.

 

[MAC USMC]

I agree with rcmodel's comments. I have been using 4.6 grains of Bullseye for 230 grain FMJ for some time and get outstanding accuracy with it.

I do not mind recoil, but see little point in using more powder than necessary. We all know that higher velocity does not mean better accuracy. For self defense I would increase to near max for obvious reasons.

 

[Miata Mike]

This is off the top of my head, but I think I loaded 4.7 grains Bullseye with Berry's 230 grain round nose and it seems to be a very nice shooting round for my .45's.

I have been using Unique lately with the plated.

 

[moxie]

Agree that a load of ~5.3 Bullseye is good for a 230 FMJ. But, I also recommend an OAL closer to 1.260 for most 230 FMJ bullets (1.240 for most RNL).

And, lose the old manuals except for reference.

 

[RavenK]

Thanks for all the good info; this clears it up for me. I will start my loads at about 4.6 and go from there. Now I don't have to worry about whether the pill will make it out of the tube OR blow the gun up!

AND I am suitably red of face for Referencing the "Lyman #2" manual. Actually, i was trying to say that I was referencing the second edition of their Pistol and Revolver Handbook, not the manual. (EddieNFL: Quill Pen! LOL!)