When do children become adults?

[Byron Quick]

Pass. Believe it or not, your opinions don't mean that much to me.

Sir, I believe we are at a failure in communication that is apparently due to your lack of understanding of the definition of opinion. I did not ask you to believe my opinion. I invited you to check out the facts. The number of traffic violations, accidents resulting in no injury, accidents resulting in injuries, and accidents resulting in fatalities involving teenage male drivers is not a personal opinion. It is a public record compiled by the states on a annual basis for many years. Perhaps you meant to state that facts don't mean much to you. That's your perogative. But your perogatives will not result in the metamorphosis of fact into opinion. My opinion has no influence on facts. Here's a newsflash: neither does yours.

It's just that stereotypes (in which I am included) piss me off.

Once again, look up the definition of the word stereotype. Then check the facts on driving. Teenage males have the worst driving record of any segment of the population...fact. Tell me, when the record shows this...how does stating a fact constitute stereotypying? Here's another fact: Males are involved in more accidents of all types (cars, bikes, trikes, ladders, falls, etc.) throughout the lifespan than females are. Is stating this fact an example of stereotyping? And then just to add insult to injury males die at a greater rate than females of all causes in every stage of the lifespan,i.e, infancy, childhood, adolescence, young adult, middle aged adult, and elderly adult. Fact. Not opinion. Not a stereotype. The nerve of the universe in discriminating against males!

 

[cracked butt]

And then just to add insult to injury males die at a greater rate than females of all causes in every stage of the lifespan,i.e, infancy, childhood, adolescence, young adult, middle aged adult, and elderly adult. Fact. Not opinion. Not a stereotype. The nerve of the universe in discriminating against males!

It just not only the Universe, but biology as well. There are more males born than females in the human race. It has to do with sperm motility. Sperm determines gender because it eitehr carries an X or a Y chromosome and while the female egg carries only the X chromosome. Sperm carrying the Y chromosome tend to be faster or more mobile than those that carry the X chromosome, but ironically enough they don't live as long. By attrition, the ratio eventually ends up to be roughly 1:1 male:female, but in older age groups, females eventually become more numerous than males.

The only place on earth that this model doesn't bear out is where female infanticide occurs such as in China as a shining example, where there are quite a few more males than females at breeding age due to social policies.

 

[coylh]

I think people should have to apply.

 

[Blackburn]

All I can say is I can't stand teenagers. I loathe most of them.

And I'm still going to be one for a while. LUCKILY I look to be around 28.. thanks to stress and cares.

 

[PMDW]

My opinion has no influence on facts. Here's a newsflash: neither does yours.

Here's a newsflash: "I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period." is an opinion. Thus, my previous statement "Believe it or not, your opinions don't mean that much to me." was in regard to the opinion "I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period.".

The word "most", meaning a large number, being at least 51%.

Combined with the fact that you have tied immaturity with accident rates (In your above post, as well as the one on the first page. You were the first to mention accident rates in a conversation over maturity, showing that you believe there to be a tie between the two) coupled with the fact that you agree with the statement of "I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period." implies that you believe at least 51% of teenagers have had, or will have an accident as a result of immaturity.

'Most teens aren't mature enough to drive -> Accidents involving teens are caused by immaturity -> Most teens will have accidents'

While I'm sure that if you isolate teen drivers and adult drivers into two different categories, the teen category will have a higher percentage of accidents (due mainly to inexperience), I don't believe that that number will be anywhre near 51%. I also don't believe that people learning to drive at 21 will have fewer accidents caused by lack of experience than those learning to drive at 16 or 17. You still have a lack of experience driving. I will admit that immaturity does play a role in the number of accidents among teens, albeit, a smaller one than lack of experience.

Fact: Teens have more accidents than adults, as studies have shown, but not due completely, or mostly to immaturity. I'm willing to bet that if you make the legal driving age 28, 28 year olds are going to have a higher accident record than 40 year olds. Again, inexperience comes into play.

ster·e·o·type Pronunciation Key (str--tp, stîr-)
n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.
3. Printing. A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type.


Until you can find a legitimate study tieing high accident rates and a lack of maturity together, I'm inclined to believe that "I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period." is indeed an opinion. And that "Teens are bad drivers because they're immature" is a stereotype. An oversimplified conception, image, opinion of teenage drivers.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Why not have each individual choose to accept responsibilities and rights of adulthood when they deem themselves ready? One can emancipate himself at fifteen or at fifty, make the condition reversible only if someone else is willing to accept parental responsibility.

 

[Sindawe]

Teenagers may look physically mature, but their brains certainly are not. Even the recognition of the facial expression of emotion in others is stunted until the brain matures. For example, many studies have shown that teenagers cannot realize that someone is showing anger or concern just by the look on that persons face.

Shoot, I could do that by age five, never mind at age 15. Maybe I never really was a kid.

When they have moved out of the house and become financially independent of their parents!

+1

 

[RevDisk]

When I was 18, I could and did sign out M9 pistols and the logbooks for M1A1 Abrams tanks. That's right. I was handed the keys for a vehicle that weighed 69 tons, and has a 120mm main gun as well as a .50 cal M2 machinegun. Oh yea, and the US tax payers even were kind enough to provide me with a belt-fed automatic grenade launcher.

(The tax payers were mean enough to give me a Beretta 92F. Geesh, what'd I do to deserve THAT piece of junk instead of a 1911? Shoot Ghandi in a former life or something? )

Yet I was not trusted to drink alcohol, nor buy a pistol, nor CCW. Very few people considered this rather odd. "No alcohol for you! But here's your Mk19 Mod 3 grenade launcher. Want HE or HEDP ammo for that?"


If you want to see an odder set of laws, look up your state's Transfer Provisions. In PA, children 14 or older can be tried as adults under certain circumstances. Uh... Ok. It sort of makes sense. If a kid goes on a murder spree at 14, he shouldn't be able to walk out of juv when he turns 18. On the other hand, a 14 year old is NOT an adult by any rational standard. Bah

when it comes to women, it is EASy to tell if they are adult or not.

ha ha. call a lady a "little girl".
her response will tell you the answer.
the woman knows it is a compliment, a term of endearment, and has no problem with it.
the little girl gets upset, offended, "i am NOT a little girl".

I remember when someone said something similiar, but slightly more insulting, to one of my ex's back when we were dating. She kicked him on the side of the head, not lightly either. Suggestion? Ask if the young lady in question if she practices any martial art before you insult her.

(Off topic, but I find it amusing.) On the other hand, I remember visiting a gun shop with her. I asked to see an IMI Desert Eagle in .50 AE. The old man behind the counter handed me the DE, and handed her a lollypop. I swear I heard her teeth grinding. Yes, I paid a heavy price for my hysterical laughter... but it was worth it!

 

[pete f]

about why would you jump in a car and see if it will go fast, well if your first car had a dual quad 440 in it you would not ask such a question.
PMDW, do not label all kids with one statement.

G forces in cars are something that just seems to be a genetic thing. and yeah i drove like a moron too, amazed that I am here and alive, but I did not mix drinking and driving at all. That may have been the difference.


I was just out in South Dakota and watched a 13 year old girl drive a 10 wheel truck into town to pick up more seed. this is her third year of driving trucks on the farm , the second of driving in to town. age is too dependant on variables to be a hard line

As far as booze and youth, I was raised by a baptist minister, I had set rules and hard limits. But I also had a Baptist minister for a father who understood kids are kids and if you force them to live as little adults, when they get to be big adults all that repressed childhood comes squirting out. I knew that somethings were verboten and I knew somethings I was going to get away with, or at least, not get punished for. I also knew several kids who fathers had the same occupation as mine who when they got away from mom and dad at the college or after moving out, became screaming demons. screwing and drinking their way to trouble. Same with binge drinking now at Universities, kids are 21 or so never before able to get a drink because to drink is a years exemption from sports or ECA's The kid never went to a party that did not have a soccermom standing there handing out gatorade. thinking she is proctecting her kids. so he or she gets to a dorm or a frat house and decideds that 18 beers in an hours sounds about right. then we wonder why he has syph and his "hook up" is pregnant.

We protect our kids so hard that we fail to see them need to learn by falling a few times. and falling hurts a lot less from a couple of feet up rather than from falling off a ladder. But you will learn the same lesson.

I believe the age of acceptance in minnesota is still 16 for girls, meaning she can marry legally at 16, but for five years she is not old enought to drink, she can not legally drive alone after 11 till she is 18 and although she can get married, she can not sign the marriage license with out her mom or dad s seconding because she can not sign a legal contract till she is 18. go figure

 

[MarkDido]

I have a 23 year old son-in law and a 25 year old daughter in law, and I have been raising their child for the last 3 years.

They still not, nor will they ever be adults.

 

[SteveS]

Until you can find a legitimate study tieing high accident rates and a lack of maturity together, I'm inclined to believe that "I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period." is indeed an opinion. And that "Teens are bad drivers because they're immature" is a stereotype. An oversimplified conception, image, opinion of teenage drivers.

I'll look, but this type of study would be difficult to set up. Studying something as complex as human behavior is difficult, given that there are so many variables. Maturity could very well be a factor and most likely is. OTOH, I am sure that you are correct in that experience plays a role in accidents.

There are several brain studies that show that the part of the brain that influences impulse control is not fully developed until the late teens. Granted, this wasn't done in regards to driving skills, but it is something to consider. If we are going to develop policy decisions in terms of driving laws, we should stick with what works, not people's opinions. Just because someone was a wild driver when they were a teen doesn't mean that all teens drive that way. OTOH, just because someone is a good driver as a teen doesn't mean that all teens are good drivers.

Insurance companies charge a high premium for teen drivers. Are they doing this to be unfair? No, they are doing it because of accident statistics. Michigan changed the driving law a few years back to introduce a garduated system for getting a driver's lic. This includes restrictions on the time when they can be on the road and, IIRC, the number of passengers they can have in the car with them. Both of these changes were based upon studies that showed when most accidents occured and the circumstances surrounding them. The teen accident rate has decreased in the last few years, so it seems to be a good change.

 

[Typhoon]

Age standards are society’s best attempt to insure the safety of younger folks; those who are admittedly further down on the learning curve with respect to judgment and life experience. Relying on a norm does not necessarily imply stereotyping. Also, quoting the exception does not invalidate the norm.

In earlier days, the responsibilities for children were assumed by the parent(s). (And grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.) Parents in families have the ability to look at kids as individuals rather than “groups†and “norms.†Unfortunately, many kids these days don’t have responsible family, so society has had to step in and assume the role of “Guardian.†Such a behemoth as society cannot take the time to distinguish between the above-average and the average. It can simply make its best guess.

As far as insurance companies go, it is just a matter of statistics and actuarial tables. Even perfect drivers can get the shaft based simply on their zip code.

Back to the age thing - Unfortunately, it seems that society has taken this fairly benign stance of being nanny to kids, and has extended it to being nanny to all. You can fight this trend with all your might and more than likely lose. Or you can tough it out, use some ingenuity, gain some maturity, and deal with it like all the rest of us (hopefully without having to don the wool sheep-suit…)

 

[Byron Quick]

Experience, huh? I learned to drive when I was ten and drove regularly on dirt roads. By the time that I first drove on a paved road...I was experienced.

I was an experienced backroads dirt racer

It didn't make me a better driver because I was experienced. You might have a point about the experience resulting in less accidents. Experience let me get away with making foolish decisions through immaturity.

Insurance companies charges males higher rates until age 26. This is an indicator that most males reach a level of maturity (I don't think it takes ten years to become an experienced driver...do you?) by that age. It is also an indicator that they were not like me. If they had been the age would most likely have been 46.

Think you need to dig into the accidents that occur. Assign the most likely causes to each and then compare. Here's a hint: don't put the ones involving alcohol or drugs into the inexperienced column.

 

[45Badger]

There's experience, there's maturity, and there's judgement. Since I don't want to offend any teenagers out there with assumptions, I'll speak of my own experiences regarding "judgement".

Mine was a heck of a lot better at 15 than at 10. It was even better at 20. and surprise of all surprises, it's better at 43 then it was at 30!

The problem with folks at any age, particularly teenagers (and maybe menopausal women) who are afflicted with raging hormones, is that their experience and judgment is limited to their total sum of life experiences. 16 or 17 is the oldest you've ever been. You KNOW it's a lot better than being 10, but you have no idea what it's like to be 18, 25, or 30. Trust me on this- 30 look real young these days!

A teenager's point of view is limited by where they stand/sit in the age/time/space continuum.

Back to the when- Probably 21 is a good place to start. I had good jobs, owned a home, paid all my bills, etc. at 21. OTOH, (looking back from the vantage point of the present) I didn't have my **** together until I was about 30. Then I got married and became a parent. Soon, I'm sure one of my young adults will tell me how much I don't know or understand. My mom calls this "payback"

 

[mercedesrules]

I like this one:

"When they have moved out of the house and become financially independent of their parents!"

and this one:

"Why not have each individual choose to accept responsibilities and rights of adulthood when they deem themselves ready? One can emancipate himself at fifteen or at fifty, make the condition reversible only if someone else is willing to accept parental responsibility."

I usually argue that puberty is the defining time for adulthood but a young person should be able to make an agreement with his parents as Oleg described. After all, if one has a 200 IQ he is "18" at chronological age 9, or below.

 

[dloken]

In Floridah a 13-year old girl can have an abortion without her parents' consent.

Old enough for her to raise the baby but not old enough to choose whether or not to keep it?

Here in Wisconsin any person under 21 can legally drink and be served alcohol as long as they're with a parent or guardian, or are married to a spouse over 21.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Well, the day AFTER I turned 17 the recruiter was at my house for my parents to sign off on my enlistment papers; I had been forced to wait for three months after my high school graduation for that day.

At age 17 years, 3 months and 3 days I raised my right hand, swore the oath, and was now officially subject to the UCMJ. I couldn't "officially" drink until I turned 18, and was legal for all of ~7 days until Florida (where I was based) raised the age to 21. I could (and did) legally drink overseas though. No idea about firearms at that time because I had no interest in them.

When I was 17, in the eyes of civilian law I was a juvenile. In the eyes of military law, I was an adult. When exactly did I become an adult?