When does engraver or stock refinisher need an FFL?

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At what point does an engraver or stock refinisher need to get an FFL to take in a gun overnight?

1. Hobbyist who does it for free and for practice?

2. Hobbyist who takes in a gun on occasion but charges for the materials?

3. Hobbyist who takes in a gun on occasion but charges for materials and a fee.

I know that to only take in the wood would not need an FFL.

This is a hypothetical.

Thank you in advance
 
If you take possession of someone elses firearms overnight as a course of business you need an FFL.
A "hobbiest" doesn't charge, a business does.

"While you wait" repairs would not require licensing. If the owner leaves it with you.....you better have a license.
 
dogtown tom said:
If you take possession of someone elses firearms overnight as a course of business you need an FFL.
A "hobbiest" doesn't charge, a business does.

"While you wait" repairs would not require licensing. If the owner leaves it with you.....you better have a license.

Isn't "in the course of business" more of a factor than keeping the gun overnight? In states like Texas (yours) and Washington (mine) we can transfer guns between same state residents all we want to without an FFL.

If I take a gun from my next door neighbor and keep it a week and refinish the stock for him, and he pays me for the materials, no laws that I can see are being broken until I do such activity repeatedly with the goal of providing livlihood and profit.
 
NavyLCDR Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
If you take possession of someone elses firearms overnight as a course of business you need an FFL.
A "hobbiest" doesn't charge, a business does.

"While you wait" repairs would not require licensing. If the owner leaves it with you.....you better have a license.
Isn't "in the course of business" more of a factor than keeping the gun overnight? In states like Texas (yours) and Washington (mine) we can transfer guns between same state residents all we want to without an FFL.

If I take a gun from my next door neighbor and keep it a week and refinish the stock for him, and he pays me for the materials, no laws that I can see are being broken until I do such activity repeatedly with the goal of providing livlihood and profit.
Wel yes....that's why I mentioned that "while you wait" repairs would not require a license as no transfer has occured.

Someone who (even as a hobby) takes possession and does overnight repairs of other peoples firearms needs an FFL. (refininshing a stock is not regulated)

There is an amatuer/hobbiest "gunsmith" sitting in the Arlington jail right now who took in other peoples guns to work on them for "free". He is awaiting trial on a number of charges.
 
dogtown tom said:
Someone who (even as a hobby) takes possession and does overnight repairs of other peoples firearms needs an FFL. (refininshing a stock is not regulated)

So, let me get this straight, just so I am sure of what you are claiming....

I have a Ruger 10/22 with a thumbhole stock, target grade bull barrel, KIDD two-stage trigger and a BSA Sweet 22 scope. The gun will shoot 10 rounds into one hole at 100 yards with no wind.

My next door neighbor and I are at the range, he shoots my gun and says, "OMG! Can you set up my 10/22 like that?!?"

I say, "Sure. I'll get you everything I have on mine, put it all together for you, and you only have to pay me the cost of the parts."

So, what you are trying to tell me is that if I take his gun in at 9:00am, put everything on it, and give him his gun back at 9:00pm that everything is fine and legal, no problem.

But if I take his gun in at 9:00am, and put the barrel, stock and scope on that day. But the trigger doesn't come in for two days, and I keep his gun. And two days later I put the trigger in and give him the gun back, NOW I am required to have an FFL because I kept his gun for 3 days? Even though, in my state, he could give me his gun anyway with no paperwork required?

Do you happen to have a reference to the statute that requires an FFL to keep a gun overnight or longer?
 
I wouldn't trust the "overnight" thing. If the gun is out of the man's presence, that may be enough for the ATF to nail the person.

BTW, I have taken guns home but I was working as a departmental armorer and needed tools at home. In that case, I was performing my duties for my employer.
 
Do you happen to have a reference to the statute that requires an FFL to keep a gun overnight or longer?

The law rarely describes what you MAY do.

It defines what you may NOT do, or MUST do.
 
So, where is the law that says if I keep my next door neighbor's gun overnight at my house to do anything to it as a favor to him that I must have an FFL? Or... where is the statute that prohibits me from keeping my neighbor's gun overnight to do anything to it as a favor to him without having an FFL? That's what I am asking. There are people that say that if I am going to keep my neighbor's gun overnight to do anything to it, that I need an FFL. I raise the B.S. flag. There is no statute requiring an FFL, and there is no statute prohibiting it without an FFL. As long as it is a favor to my neighbor and I am not doing it as a business.
 
If I keep my neighbor's gun for safekeeping while he is on vacation, I need an FFL to return it to him?

lawson4
 
NavyLCDR ...Do you happen to have a reference to the statute that requires an FFL to keep a gun overnight or longer?

I never said that. Merely keeping someone else's firearm overnight is not a violation of Federal law. If you are engaged in the business of repairing firearms and keep them overnight you need to get an FFL.

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.
[27 CFR 478.11]

27CFR478.11 says:

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.


NavyLCDR So, where is the law that says if I keep my next door neighbor's gun overnight at my house to do anything to it as a favor to him that I must have an FFL? Or
No one made that arguement but you.
I'll repeat, if you take possession of someone elses firearms overnight as a course of business you need an FFL. As in buying and selling guns, it will be ATF that determines if you are "engaged in the business".

lawson4 If I keep my neighbor's gun for safekeeping while he is on vacation, I need an FFL to return it to him?
No.:rolleyes:
 
I could take NavyLCDR's rifle and keep it for a year, or a lifetime, or he could take mine and keep it for a year, or a lifetime, and no law, federal or state is broken. What is done to that rifle (or pistol) while it is in the second persons possession is none of the state or federal government's business.

We live in the same state and can FTF transfer any legal firearm between each other as much as we want. (money can, but does not have to, be exchanged, we could trade guns..whatever, totally legal, no ffl, no paperwork)

Also, I can "loan" him my weapon at any time/for any amount of time/legal purpose. We would not have to tell either the state government, or the feds.

Where the problem comes in, is..is the modifying of firearms a "livelyhood" If it is, you need a business license, and a proper federal ffl. If it is not a livelyhood, you do not.

If I go to NYS, I never take any of my guns with me. why? NYS is a pain, but also, I have 3 BIL's that have plenty of weapons they will "loan" to me while I am there if we want to hunt, or target practice at the range or in their back yard. If I "borrow" that shotgun for one round of trap, or for a month, means nothing...it is totally legal.

Your person in Arlington (I am assuming TX) is in the jail house for someother reason, like federal income tax problems??? and if he was in fact making a "untaxed" living, yes, then he needed a license.
 
NavyLCDR Keeping the gun overnight or not has nothing to do with it.
It does when the OP specifically asked:
bushmaster1313 At what point does an engraver or stock refinisher need to get an FFL to take in a gun overnight?
You are stuck on the "overnight" as if that were the only point.
It isn't.

He goes on to ask about charging fees.......thats clearly gunsmithing and requires an FFL.


hermannr I could take NavyLCDR's rifle and keep it for a year, or a lifetime, or he could take mine and keep it for a year, or a lifetime, and no law, federal or state is broken.....
So what? No one said you could not do any of that. That statement has nothing to do with this thread.


Where the problem comes in, is..is the modifying of firearms a "livelyhood" If it is, you need a business license, and a proper federal ffl. If it is not a livelyhood, you do not.
No kidding.
That was in my first response to the OP.
BTW...."livelyhood" doesn't mean your sole income.....if you charge a fee you are engaged in the business. ATF regs say part time needs an FFL.
 
dogtown tom said:
It does when the OP specifically asked:

bushmaster1313 said:
At what point does an engraver or stock refinisher need to get an FFL to take in a gun overnight?

You are stuck on the "overnight" as if that were the only point.
It isn't.

Respectfully, just because the OP used the word overnight in his question, does not cause overnight to have any relevence. I'm not stuck on overnight except for one fact: overnight has NO BEARING upon the answer, whether or not it was used in the original question.
 
NavyLCDR Respectfully, just because the OP used the word overnight in his question, does not cause overnight to have any relevence. I'm not stuck on overnight except for one fact: overnight has NO BEARING upon the answer, whether or not it was used in the original question.

Sure it does....."Overnight" is the easiest way to describe the opposite of "while you wait".

If you do "while you wait" repairs to a firearm (meaning you NEVER take possession) no FFL is needed. You see this a lot at gun shows where a guy will install nightsights while you are standing there.

If customers drop off guns for you to repair and you take several days......you better get a license.
 
Can my friend "sell" the gun to me for ten cents, and then I add all that stuff on, go to the range to play with my new toy, get sick of it, and "sell" it back for ten cents plus the price of the parts?
 
dogtown tom said:
If you do "while you wait" repairs to a firearm (meaning you NEVER take possession) no FFL is needed. You see this a lot at gun shows where a guy will install nightsights while you are standing there.

If customers drop off guns for you to repair and you take several days......you better get a license.

Show us in the statutes where the length of time it takes to do a repair makes any difference whatsoever in regards to if an FFL is needed to conduct the repair. IT'S NOT THERE! Your post is complete FUDD.

Let me tell you this - if the guy at the gun show is charging $50 a pop to install night sights, and he installs a number of sets of night sights at the gun show, each taking him 10 minutes to do while the customer waits, he better well have an FFL because he is ENGAGING IN THE BUSINESS of customizing firearms!

On the other hand, if my next door neighbor leaves his gun with me, and it takes me 3 days to install his night sights, and I don't charge him.... show me what statute requires me to have an FFL.

Why are YOU so caught up on the length of time a person keeps a gun, when there is NO MENTION of length of time in the statutes requiring gunsmiths to be licensed?!?

IT DOES NOT MATTER if the repairs are WHILE YOU WAIT, or take OVERNIGHT, or take THREE WEEKS! THE ONLY deciding factor is ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF. "Engaged in the business of" is defined by whether or not the person repeatedly performs repairs for livelihood or profit. How long it takes to do a repair HAS NO BEARING on whether or not the person is "engaged in the business of" doing firearms repairs.

Where you are so greatly confused, and I am really surprised that you are so confused on this matter, is the statute requires a licensed gunsmith to log a firearm in and out if they are going to keep it overnight or longer. The statute does not require a licensed gunsmith to log in a firearm that they return the same day. But that statute only applies to gunsmiths who are already licensed. If a person does not do repairs/customization for the purpose of livelihood or profit, if they are not enganged in the business of repairing firearms, no FFL is required, even if it takes me three hours, three days, or three years to repair/customize a gun - so long as the transfer of the gun is otherwise legal and so long as I am not doing it as a course of business. But when I do it five times in one day and charge each person a fee, an FFL is required even though the actions are done while the owner waits.
 
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Let's just put this to rest right now...

18 USC 923(a) requires:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00000923----000-.html

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.

18 USC 921(a)(11) defines a dealer as:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

(11) The term “dealer” means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms

18 USC 921 (a)(21)(D) defines engaged in the business of as:
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

18 USC 921(a)(22) defines with the principle objective of livelihood and profit as:
(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.

So, tell me, where in those statutes does the term "while the customer waits", or "overnight", or "longer than one day", or ANYTHING AT ALL that has to do with the length of time a gun is kept even mentioned?!?

IT'S NOT.
 
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Let me muddy the waters a bit...

I make and sell trophies and plaques and engrave all sorts of stuff that comes through the door, including firearms.

Here's my understanding of the law (with the help of the ATF); If I'm engraving a firearm, I'm performing gunsmithing, therefore I need an FFL to keep the firearm overnight. If the job is performed and picked up the same day, no problem, no FFL required.

Also, if I'm just engraving the barrel, or upper, or slide and the receiver is not left with me, I can keep them as long as is needed to do the work, as I have no "firearm" overnight.

That's the way it was explained to me (by the ATF), so I always tell to the customer to make an appointment for a day when I can turn it around on the same day.

Besides, I don't want the responsibility of having someone else's firearms being left in my store overnight.
 
I still have one question that has NOT been answered. Show me the STATUTE that says I must have an FFL to keep my next door neighbor's gun overnight to put in a custom trigger for him as a favor to him, as a hobbyist, not charging for my services.

If I choose to charge $50 an hour to install 5 triggers in 5 different peoples guns every day for a month, tell me how I am NOT violating 18 USC 923(a) simply because I don't keep their guns overnight.

You can express B.S. opinions all day long... I want to see it in statutes. I've proven in statutes where you are wrong.
 
Hi, LCDR,

The statute says nothing about overnight. But the statute says anyone doing customizing needs an FFL and that means he has to keep a book. And BATFE says that any gun kept on the business premises overnight needs to be recorded in the book for purposes of accountability. If BATFE does a premises inspection, EVERY gun on the premises under the control of the FFL holder MUST be in the book. By not having an FFL or keeping a book, you don't have to worry about keeping records. You just have to worry about being arrested for being an unlicensed gunsmith.

In truth, thousands of people "do favors" in just that way, in other fields, like auto repair or computer work. The trouble is that there is no federal license required for people who repair or customize cars or computers. But people who work on guns for money, even for friends, do need a federal license.

Is it silly? Yes. Is it the law? Yes. I may think the law against robbing banks is silly, but I don't want to argue the point with a federal judge.

Jim
 
Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?
Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

Q: Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent “bound book” record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?
If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.

From the BATF's website. You only need a license if you're engaging in the business of Gunsmithing, not doing a favor but being in the actual favor.
 
people who work on guns for money

BINGO!!

This is the crux that keeps being overlooked. If a person is working on firearms for gain, monetary or otherwise, they fall into the category that needs a FFL. If the firearm is kept overnight it must be entered in their bound book. Same day turnaround doesn't need to be entered, but a FFL is still required as they are considered "In the business".
If I work on a friends gun and don't charge his for my time (or demand "goods" from him), I'm not "In the business" and do not need a FFL.

I suppose there could be a case made that if I had a lot of "friends" and worked on a lot of guns I might be considered as acting as though I was in business and was a pretty inept businessman for doing it for free.....:D:D
 
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