When is "premium" brass worth the extra money?

[tjd308]

I tried searching for a question like this on the forum here and couldn't find a super relevant thread which I found surprising as I'm sure it's a pretty common question....

I've been loading for a variety of rifles and calibers and have just been using once fired brass from Remington & Federal for the .308 & .270 WIN bolt guns I have and some Lake City brass I've collected over the years for my AR-15 and now some Greek HXP 30-06 for the Garand I recently purchased.

I'm wondering what benefits I'd realize if I went to a high end brass from a manufacturer like Lapua or Nosler. What are you paying for at around $1 a round for the brass alone (I think 50 pieces of Lapua brass for .308 WIN is around $55 or so)? Are the benefits only worth it for a precision rifle? Would it make any sense for an autoloader like an AR-15 or M1 Garand? Logic tells me that if it's worth it at all it would just be for highly accurate shooting only, unless there is a longevity argument and that you'd get so much life out of it even in an autoloader that it's worth it.

Second but related question: How would you rate the "premium" brass manufacturers versus the "standard" ones? Premium being Lapua, Nosler, Hornady, Norma and standard being Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc? What about the "value" options like reconditioned bulk brass from someone like Top Brass?

Thanks in advance for the help. I've been a member of this forum for a short time and have come to really enjoy you guys! I've been reading it for years but have just now decided to jump in.

 

[Bart B.]

Once fired brass of most any kind from anywhere will shoot MOA at 100 yards from decent commercial bolt guns and 2 MOA from decent semiauto service rifles. If the shooter's up to it and loads good ammo. Until that's about the worst you shoot with both rifle types, I suggest you not buy expensive new brass.

Premium brass is way down on my priority list for accuracy and precision. It's about 5% of the total solution. Some big matches have been won and records set with military 7.62 NATO M80 service brass. The barrel is number one. Number two is bullet diameters a few ten-thousandths bigger than the barrels groove diameter. Third is having the bolt face squared up with the barrel tenon thread axis; a half MOA or more improvement if you'll reload new cases fired in that rifle.

 

[FROGO207]

Other than the metallurgy of a particular brand and the preprocessing done I see little difference in comparison to once fired brass myself. Note though that I usually shoot less than 200 YDS and use stock off the shelf firearms though. YMMV

 

[cfullgraf]

I've never been a super rifle shooter. But when I competed in Service rifle competition, I'd use quality, same head stamp cases, not necessarily premium cases. At least the cases would all be the same.

Same with my ammunition for my prairie dog hunts.

I figured if I ever got to a top level competitor, then I'd consider the expensive cases.

Also, I always learn something from Bart B. I'll stop obsessing about my rifle cases.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Take any good brass. Separate it by Brand and weight. Fill with water and check the internal capacity. Anneal trim to length. Check flash hole for consistency Now you have premium brass.

 

[macgrumpy]

I like to use Lapua brass with my precision loads, even in my M1A rifles, but I've found that in my service rifles Lapua brass only shows better performance up to about the 3rd reloading, sometimes only the 2nd. For bolt guns, my Lapua brass lasts longer, especially if I only neck size and keep the same brass grouped by the rifle it is used for.

One of the big differences I've seen between my Lapua brass and other brands is the case volume. Expensive brass seems to have a more consistent volume, obviously a by product of tighter dimensional standards. Consistent case volume helps produce ammo with lower extreme spread and standard deviation numbers.

Another key element that you'll find in brass is the flash holes, some are punched and others are drilled. Punched holes will have burrs or may be off center or misformed, drilled are much more consistent and centered better.

Is it worth it? For me, yes, but I don't mind spending the money and I have lots of other brands of brass for my standard rounds. I actually don't recommend using expensive brass for the average shooter because he wont see any difference but if you are anal retentive like me it's nice to know that you are using premium brass and that at least some of the variations in your loads are being reduced.

 

[tjd308]

Once fired brass of most any kind from anywhere will shoot MOA at 100 yards from decent commercial bolt guns and 2 MOA from decent semiauto service rifles. If the shooter's up to it and loads good ammo. Until that's about the worst you shoot with both rifle types, I suggest you not buy expensive new brass.

Premium brass is way down on my priority list for accuracy and precision. It's about 5% of the total solution. Some big matches have been won and records set with military 7.62 NATO M80 service brass. The barrel is number one. Number two is bullet diameters a few ten-thousandths bigger than the barrels groove diameter. Third is having the bolt face squared up with the barrel tenon thread axis; a half MOA or more improvement if you'll reload new cases fired in that rifle.

Bart, you keep providing consistent and sound guidance on pretty much every question I have on THR. Are you accepting applications for young mentors? Maybe an indentured servitude to pick up some of your knowledge? Haha....in all seriousness, thanks once again!

 

[Bart B.]

i think it's a waste of time to sort cases by capacity unless their weight and outside dimensions are all exactly the same. Weighing them is easy. The only time their outside dimensions are the same is when fired and at the same peak pressure in the chamber. Outside the chamber, they're usually a bit out of round. The more there is, the less capacity they'll have. Sort 'em to a 1% weight spread; that is all that matters; then only at long range. The right primer and powder do more to produce uniform pressure curves which contributes much more to uniform bullet velocities than exact case capacities.

'Twas proved in the late '50's that proper full length sizing of bottleneck cases enabled better accuracy and precision than neck or partial full length sizing. Once one learns how dies shape cases and they're positioned in the chamber when fired, it's all very clear and understood. Cases do not lie in chamber bottoms when fired; that popular myth still persists. Benchrest folks switched from neck only to proper full length sizing several years ago. Dozens of full length sizing per case is easy.

I think all that case prep is a waste of time. So does Sierra Bullets; they do none yet shoot their best match bullets from full length sized unsorted cases well under 1/2 MOA at 200 yards testing for quality, one 10-shot group after another, and another........ That's better than most benchrest rifles do with meticulous ammo and equal to the rest.

 

[macgrumpy]

There is no direct correlation between case capacity and case weight. Differences in thicknesses and head construction make it impossible to try to make a direct relationship between weight changes and volume.

http://thefirearmsforum.s3.amazonaws.com/2011/03/122899_be2ec577ae0f7c85f54376fef0c73214.pdf

 

[JeffG]

It's been my experience that accuracy gains with brass are more dependent on having the came case lots, brand, and reloading rituals. (consistency) Weighing each new case, neck turning, and primer pocket reaming help also. This has been my experience mainly with BOLT rifles.

 

[macgrumpy]

...well under 1/2 MOA at 200 yards testing for quality, one 10-shot group after another, and another........ That's better than most benchrest rifles do with meticulous ammo and equal to the rest.

Hmm, so most benchrest rifles wont shoot less than 1/2 MOA at 200 yards?

 

[macgrumpy]

Cases do not lie in chamber bottoms when fired...

Doesn't that depend upon the clearances between the cartridge and the chamber?

 

[Sunray]

Premium brass is primarily about the retail cost of it. Hasn't much, if anything at all, to do with accuracy. Doesn't take over priced brass to load match grade ammo for any rifle. It takes meticulous techniques that are about consistent everything. Brass like Lapua is expensive for economic reasons, like being made in Finland and U.S. duties.
The benchrest folks are a totally different species of shooter. Most of 'em don't resize at all and load like a naval gun was in W.W. II.

 

[Bart B.]

Hmm, so most benchrest rifles wont shoot less than 1/2 MOA at 200 yards?

Not all the time.

All of Sierra's match bullets' test groups have to be 1" or smaller at 200 yards; that's a half MOA or less.

In response to my remark on bottleneck cases head spacing on their shoulders: "Cases do not lie in chamber bottoms when fired...", he asks:

Doesn't that depend upon the clearances between the cartridge and the chamber?

No. Not when case body diameters are smaller than the chamber wall around them and there's at least .001" of bolt face clearance to the case head. That's the way it is 99.9% of the time.

They've been pushed forward by the firing pin centering their shoulder in the chamber shoulder which pretty much leaves clearance all around their body except at the point on the pressure ring that's pushed against the chamber wall at some place; usually opposite the extractor pushing on the case head.

In rifles with in line spring loaded ejectors in the bolt face, they push the chambered round into the chamber shoulder the same way as the bolt is closed.

After all this is done, the round fires.

 

[Walkalong]

Hmm, so most benchrest rifles wont shoot less than 1/2 MOA at 200 yards?

Most, if not 99%, will shoot under 1" at 200 yards in the real world with real shooters in real conditions. If you don't mess it up of course. You had better average under 1/2" if you want to place. I have no doubt the same is true for F Class and High Power rifles. My buddy Bart loves to bust Benchresters chops for some reason. Maybe because they only shoot 5 shot groups.

Kind of like Auburn vs Alabama, or Notre Dame vs Michigan, or Army vs Navy.

 

[Bart B.]

Last time I checked, 10-shot groups are also fired in benchrest at all ranges as far as I know. Several comprise aggregates. I've yet to know of anyone whose 10-shot benchrest groups are all 1 inch or smaller at 200 yards for the life of the barrel.

Having looked at benchrest results for years, one thing's common. A few in the top ten in 200 yard matches shoot groups bigger than 1" (1/2 MOA) a few times over several days.

 

[macgrumpy]

So I said

Doesn't that depend upon the clearances between the cartridge and the chamber?

and your answer was;

No. Not when case body diameters are smaller than the chamber wall around them

I'm confused, if the case body diameters are smaller than the chamber wall around them then isn't that saying the it depends upon the clearances between the cartridge and the chamber? I'm not sure how you can disagree while agreeing with me but there it is.

I've yet to know of anyone whose 10-shot benchrest groups are all 1 inch or smaller at 200 yards for the life of the barrel.

It looks like you're slowly adding qualifications in to your original statement. First you claimed that most benchrest rifles wont shoot 1/2 MOA at 200 yards, now you're saying that they wont shoot 1 MOA or better at 200 yards for the life of the barrel. I suspect that Sierra doesn't ever use a worn barrel for their testing so it isn't reasonable to try to make a comparison to a worn out benchrest barrel. I'm not a benchrest competitor but all the competition results that I've looked up on the Internet on the International Benchrest Shooters web site shows that most of these guys are winning with groups that are a little over 1/10 MOA at 200 yards.

I guess it doesn't matter since both are without any proof and the first (most benchrest rifles wont shoot 1/2 MOA at 200 yards) is simply not true. Besides, trying to compare Sierra's (environmentally controlled) quality tests against real world bench shooters (who have to contend with the changing environmental conditions) isn't comparing apples to apples so these comments aren't really valid anyways.

 

[Walkalong]

Last time I checked, 10-shot groups are also fired in benchrest at all ranges as far as I know. Several comprise aggregates. I've yet to know of anyone whose 10-shot benchrest groups are all 1 inch or smaller at 200 yards for the life of the barrel.

Having looked at benchrest results for years, one thing's common. A few in the top ten in 200 yard matches shoot groups bigger than 1" (1/2 MOA) a few times over several days.

Yes, in unlimited they shoot ten shot groups. Real people shooting guns in real conditions. Big groups happen that way. The same could be said for Sierra's famous match bullets in F Class or High Power competitions. No one has a lock on accuracy, and no one always shoots as well as the barrels/bullets are capable of.

 

[Walkalong]

Besides, trying to compare Sierra's (environmentally controlled) quality tests against real world bench shooters (who have to contend with the changing environmental conditions) isn't comparing apples to apples so these comments aren't really valid anyways.

Yep, or other rifle disciplines as well.

 

[USSR]

When I was shooting in 1,000 yard F Class Competition, almost to a man, everybody used Lapua brass. Some reloading tricks that were used included partial resizing of the neck with bushing dies, using light neck tension and soft seating the bullets when chambering the cartridges.

Don

 

[Bart B.]

I'll make some remarks after all those who've misreferenced my comments get them corrected.

 

[1stmarine]

I don't think lapua is expensive if one considers how many loads one can get out of that brass.
What is very attractive to me is the uniformity of the flash holes that is a determining factor in the consistency of the spreads.

 

[Baron66]

Take any good brass. Separate it by Brand and weight. Fill with water and check the internal capacity. Anneal trim to length. Check flash hole for consistency Now you have premium brass.

That works? I figured surface tension would make it impossible to measure such small volumes. What kind of differences do you see between cartridges?

 

[Walkalong]

Figuring water capacity is just too much of a pain for me to worry with it. We sorted by weight and were shooting bug holes when we didn't screw things up.

 

[pert near]

What is your time worth? If part of your ammo making requires a lot of case culling & preparation, you will find Lapua & Norma yield more pieces quicker with less work. I once ordered 100 pieces of new .22-250 Winchester brass from Midway. After sorting through the first 50 I discovered a large percentage with flash holes off-center. You could roll them on the table & watch the holes move in an oval! I complained to Midway & they quickly replaced them with 100 pieces of Rem. If you don't like the minutia of checking new brass, buy the higher quality & just start loading it. I'll agree that attention to tiny details are often inconsequential in comparison to all the other factors in precision shooting. That is except for one - your confidence.