When were Model 10's plus p rated?

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BlueHeelerFl

BlueHeelerFl

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Eventually I'd like to get myself a S&W M10. I examined a few at my LGS and got an itch.

When were M10's designated as plus p rated, or were they always considered safe for plus p?
 
Do a little research and you will find original 38 Special was just a hot if not in some cases loaded hotter than the mighty +P loads of today. So if you gun is rated for 38 Special it should be able to handle any +P ammo. Here is the best writing I have ever seen on this subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Todays 38 Special standard loads are pretty much a joke. They are no better than the 38 Colt that the 38 Special was supposed to replace. The 38 Colt was loaded to get 750FPS from a 6" barrel with a 150gr bullet. That's about what standard loads are now getting. The +P loads are just an attempt to load to real 38 Special original load pressures and charge you an extra amount for doing so.
 
Ratshooter said:
Do a little research and you will find original 38 Special was just a hot if not in some cases loaded hotter than the mighty +P loads of today. So if you gun is rated for 38 Special it should be able to handle any +P ammo. Here is the best writing I have ever seen on this subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Todays 38 Special standard loads are pretty much a joke. They are no better than the 38 Colt that the 38 Special was supposed to replace. The 38 Colt was loaded to get 750FPS from a 6" barrel with a 150gr bullet. That's about what standard loads are now getting. The +P loads are just an attempt to load to real 38 Special original load pressures and charge you an extra amount for doing so.
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This is pretty much it. I've also asked a awhile ago to Smith and they said any post WW2 gun is gonna be "safe" for plus p. I've put several hundred plus p loads through my M&P pre 10 from 1947 and never noticed any issues. So take that for what it's worth. If your picking one up from the late 50s onward I wouldn't even worry about it.
 
Ratshooter said:
Do a little research and you will find original 38 Special was just a hot if not in some cases loaded hotter than the mighty +P loads of today. So if you gun is rated for 38 Special it should be able to handle any +P ammo. Here is the best writing I have ever seen on this subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Todays 38 Special standard loads are pretty much a joke. They are no better than the 38 Colt that the 38 Special was supposed to replace. The 38 Colt was loaded to get 750FPS from a 6" barrel with a 150gr bullet. That's about what standard loads are now getting. The +P loads are just an attempt to load to real 38 Special original load pressures and charge you an extra amount for doing so.
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I think it is largely a liability issue, rather than profit-driven, though they consider that a plus as well.

Many old, worn out, and improperly heat treated .38s from places like Spain and Brazil are floating around out there which might fail (more often anyway) with the vintage Special loads. Thus, they offer reduced power as the "standard" load these days to mitigate the risk of litigation stemming from using their ammo in those guns and warn against using "+P" (which really isn't) in anything not marked as such- thus excluding any revolvers produced prior to the late '80s.

Its like trying to find factory .30-40 or .250 Savage loaded to its original velocity- not gonna happen because they know you're going to use it in antique guns.
 
Remember, a gun can t be marked +P before there was a +P designation. That would be after 1972/1973 I think.

According to S&W any all steel revolver with a model number (post 1957) is safe with +P ammo. Most factory .38 Special +P ammo made today barely breaks 18,000 psi whereas the limits are 20,000 psi. You do what you think is safe, not what people you don't know tell you in the Internet.
 
Nightlord you make good points except that those old Spanish and Brazilian made guns were made to fire the original 38 loads and so should still be safe with them. I agree with the guy who wrote the paper I posted the link to that 38 +P is just a gimmick. Right up there with Leverevolution ammo or what ever its called. Its not better better because of the rubber tipped bullet. Its better because its loaded hotter.

The 38 +P is an effort to match what 38 Special should be loaded to. Now when you start talking about some of the specialty ammo loaders like Buffalo Bore then yes, I wouldn't use those in any Spanish made gun. And I wouldn't use it in a S&W made before heat treated cylinders. But any of the later say after 1930s built K-Frame model 10/M&P gun should be safe with +P or original power 38 Specials.

One benefit the new 38 Special lower power loads provide is that they make good reduced power loads for small game hunting and softer training loads or loads for elderly folks who may have trouble shooting full power loads. Plus they are good for lightweight snubby practice loads.

And while you have read and heard all the stories about how the 38 Long Colt was a failure in the "Philippine Insurrection" it was not a total failure. I read a report by Jack Lott in an old Guns & Ammo and he stated the 38 Colt actually gave a good account of its self early on. It wasn't until the fighting moved to the south into Mindanao that they started having failures to stop. But they also had failures with 45 Colt single actions and 30/40 Krag rounds with stopping these crazies. The only for sure stopper was a 12 gauge buckshot load. And even then it had to be aimed properly.

I have some of the Sellier&Bellot ammo mentioned in the article I posted. And it is true 38 Special loads. Its some powerful ammo for a 38. It is impressive. If it would occur to S&B to replace the RNL bullet with a 158gr hollow point and sell it for the same price in 50 round boxes they might take over the SD handgun ammo market. I have a couple of boxes of this ammo left. I bought it from Cheaper Than Dirt(hate to admit I ever shopped there) and is is marked $6.95 a box. I should have bought a case of it. I handload and can easily match it but with a good bullet it would be great ammo for those who don't.
 
Ratshooter said:
I agree with that 100%. Do your own reading and research and make your own decisions based on what you have learned. And the model 10 is a great choice. The model 15 is an even greater choice if you happen to run across one.:thumbup:
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Now you're talking. Even though I really like my M10 I want a M15 badly. Sure I can find them but they are usually in really nice condition so the seller is extremely proud of it with a price tag to match lol. When I find a shooter at a fair price it will join my other revolvers.
 
Arch save your pennies, get a second job, sell one of kids but get a model 15. The best 38 Special you can get IMHO. At least its a really good choice. Mine was a Fort Worth PD turn in my uncle who was a FWPD picked up and sold to me for $225 way back in the early 1990s. It has been my HD gun for at least 25+ years. Its loaded with Remington 158gr SWC hollow points. I have never felt the least bit underarmed. Of course having a Mini-14 and a 12 and 20ga right there beside it also helps.:neener:

Its really just a Gold Star model 10.
 
I have two model 10’s, a 67 no dash, and I just picked up a pre model 15, the K 38 Combat Masterpiece, for $425 I think. They’re all great. That K38 does feel very svelte in the hand compared to my bull barrel Model 10’s and 64.
 
+P ammo didn't exist prior to the early 70s. What we now call +P was standard pressure prior to that. What we call standard pressure today should be called low power.
I would avoid using+P in pre WWII guns, but even that is probably being over cautious.
 
I would avoid using+P in pre WWII guns, but even that is probably being over cautious.
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Why? You're lucky if +P equals the original 38 Special these older guns were designed to shoot. That was the whole point of the link I posted. Did you read it? I bet not.:(
 
This one is from 1916. I wouldn't use +P in it. It's just a little bit loose and I only shoot mild handloads with it.
View media item 1666

This one is from 1961. It's a police turn-in that apparently wasn't shot very much. It locks up nice and tight. I would have no problems shooting +P through it. Wow, that's a bad picture. I should take a new one. It looks much better in person. The range safety officer kinda hinted around that he wanted to buy it from me the last time I shot it there.
View media item 1782
 
My late father-in-law was into reloading and pushing pistols to their limits. Back in the 50's-60's he routinely conjured up loads way hotter than the current P+ loads. He kept track of them in a journal and never had a kaboom. He said he did have some loads that just tore the S&W model 10's up after shooting several rounds through them, as he put it they were shot out and he scavenged them for parts as needed. Unless you reload or get Buffalo Bore rounds I would say you are more than safe in a steel model 10.

Ratshooter said:
Do a little research and you will find original 38 Special was just a hot if not in some cases loaded hotter than the mighty +P loads of today. So if you gun is rated for 38 Special it should be able to handle any +P ammo. Here is the best writing I have ever seen on this subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Todays 38 Special standard loads are pretty much a joke. They are no better than the 38 Colt that the 38 Special was supposed to replace. The 38 Colt was loaded to get 750FPS from a 6" barrel with a 150gr bullet. That's about what standard loads are now getting. The +P loads are just an attempt to load to real 38 Special original load pressures and charge you an extra amount for doing so.
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We currently have no model 10s but do have a model 14--sort of a very smooth model 10 with better sights, trigger and hammer. :) I have however worked on numerous model 10s, 13s, 64s and 65s. Any of those in proper working order would be fine with any SAAMI compliant 38 Special +P ammunition.
 
Ratshooter said:
Do a little research and you will find original 38 Special was just a hot if not in some cases loaded hotter than the mighty +P loads of today. So if you gun is rated for 38 Special it should be able to handle any +P ammo. Here is the best writing I have ever seen on this subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Todays 38 Special standard loads are pretty much a joke. They are no better than the 38 Colt that the 38 Special was supposed to replace. The 38 Colt was loaded to get 750FPS from a 6" barrel with a 150gr bullet. That's about what standard loads are now getting. The +P loads are just an attempt to load to real 38 Special original load pressures and charge you an extra amount for doing so.
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Thanks for the link.

That is an excellent and very well argumented article.
 
Yes that fellow Saxon Pig who wrote the article post over on TFL but I haven't seen him in a while. But he knows what he is talking about.

This one is from 1916. I wouldn't use +P in it. It's just a little bit loose and I only shoot mild handloads with it.
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Good choice. That gun is close to the age when the cylinders were not heat treated. And one other thing to beware of is that those old guns have about equal lands and grooves and displace a lot of lead. So don't use the modern rock hard lead bullets. Use the swaged bullets from Speer and Hornady and your gun will be fine.

My late father-in-law was into reloading and pushing pistols to their limits. Back in the 50's-60's he routinely conjured up loads way hotter than the current P+ loads. He kept track of them in a journal and never had a kaboom. He said he did have some loads that just tore the S&W model 10's up after shooting several rounds through them, as he put it they were shot out and he scavenged them for parts as needed. Unless you reload or get Buffalo Bore rounds I would say you are more than safe in a steel model 10.
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I never promote shooting past book loads in any gun. And have mild loads to shoot in my own 38s that are pleasant and easy on the brass, ears and wrist. Full power loads are fun but there is nothing that says you have to shoot them all the time.
 
We had some concerns with safety of older S&W revolvers. There was no interest in hot rodding anything. The best we got is that heat treating cylinders started during WWI with 1917's. The process was extended to other models after the war. It's kinda uncertain exactly when with what models. The best suggestion is to go with guns with model numbers.
 
Thank you all for the great info! That article about 38 power levels was excellent!

I'm not set up to reload, so all ammo would be factory which doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm not sure if I'd use them, but would the hot Buffalo Bore 158 gr +p (and similar hot loads from Underwood etc) be alright for limited usag
 
If you think 38+P is hot do some history on S&W's 38/44. That the high velocity 38 Special caliber pre-WW2 N frame revolvers. Those rounds are scary. Those old time rounds are similar to the current Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 158gr. cartridges. Have fun at the range with those loads or similar.
 
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