Where do you really stand on the 2nd amendment?

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effengee

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I often read here on THR how some of you are OK with carry permits.
Like it's perfectly normal to be forced, under penaly of law, to register with Federal, State, and/or Local governments in order to keep and bear arms.
To be told: You can carry an "our idea of an acceptable" handgun concealed, but only after you submit to things like a fee charged safety course, fingerprinting, and/or the approval of a Law Enforcement Officer, seems to me like an infringement upon a clearly stated right.

Personally, I don't care what gun you own, or what you do with it, or whether you think Ted Nugent is a certified hero or a loud-mouthed fool, I consider every firearms owner as my family...

I get really P-Ohed every time somebody insults someone for owning a gun.
I'm not some Bambi killing, flannel wearing, chew spitting, beer guzzling, pick-up truck driving, redneck.
Wait a minute, actually I am one of those!:what:

But that's OK because I'm proud of who I am and that's more than I can say for most non-gun owners...

I get twice as mad when it's some Holier-than-thou type who says to me:
"I own a gun for hunting, that AK-47/extended magazine handgun/black powder cannon of yours is just plain unnecessary."

Well, I'm sorry, I thought it read:
"Arms"
not
"The right to keep socially respectable firearms and bear them only with governmental approval"

So, I think Ted's my hero, and I own guns because I can.
How 'bout you?
 
WEll, I am NOT ok with carry permits, but I am even LESS ok with going to jail, losing my job and everything I worked for, all for nothing. We are shall issue and it is much easier and less hazardous to get a permit than it is to go to jail for the felony of getting caught illegally carrying. Going to jail would not change the system. So I have a permit.

I am working within the system to change things. Until things change, we are stuck with what we have. What makes it difficult is the gun world is fragmented. You have the fudds, the tacticool kids, the mall ninjas, the Navy Squeals, cops, the "you can carry it everywhere except on my property" crowd, etc.

Until they all work together, those laws and attitudes will never change.
 
Our Govt. would seem to be infatuated with the idea of requiring us to "buy" a license from them to do just about everything any more. A driver's license. A license for your car. A license for a trailer. A building permit to construct a deck. A permit to carry a firearm. Now a lot of folks think this is all well and good because it makes us all safer which is not true at all (like the TSA) But no one has ever been able to show me where in the U.S. or any State constitution exactly where the Govt. is granted the authority to do this by the people they work for. They simply gave themselves this authority and no one has questioned it.
 
They simply gave themselves this authority and no one has questioned it.
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Well, that isn't true at all. We have a long and bitter history of legal challenges to most forms of registration or licensing -- in all walks of life. So far, the courts have tended to agree with some "need" for such things outweighing the argument that the government does not have the authority to regulate them.

But effengee, otherwise, here at THR, you're preaching to the choir.

-Sam
 
I am OK with carry permits. Just OK though. Not perfectly happy.

I will try and give a parallel line of thought here.

I am all about the 2nd amendment and the right to keep and bear arms. I am also for not having to fill out paperwork to buy a gun.

If you have ever worked in firearms retail you will understand that there are some people who should not have guns though. NOT they shouldn't be ALLOWED to have guns, they just shouldnt have them. These are people who obviously do not understand firearm safety and obliviously try to manipulate the gun. Sometimes they do not even have the strength to pull the trigger. I think some of these folks, who have every right to own a gun, would benefit greatly from a concealed carry class (whether they have to pay for it or not) before they should be able to carry a gun around with them.
 
What about states where open carry is legal and you only need a permit to conceal carry? It says the right to bear arms, not the right to bear concealed arms, right? Just playing devil's advocate. Of course, that only applies to states where open carry is legal with no permit, as it should be.

But yeah, it doesn't say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but only as long as we think those arms are for hunting or sporting"
 
While our federal and state laws are imperfect, to say the least, I reserve civil disobedience for only the most egregious violations of civil and human rights. Fortunately we have not quite reached that stage yet regarding firearms. Therefore I'll work within the system (there is no real freedom without the rule of law) so that I'm not considered a criminal. :) In principle, I generally agree with Ted Nugent's take on the Second Amendment, and believe that the federal government has too great of a tendency (and the ability) to ignore the Constitution whenever they feel like it. Additionally, I hold that the entire US Bill of Rights does not only protect us from the federal government, but each and every state government as well (full "incorporation"), and that the Second Amendment is an individual right like all of the others.

Furthermore, not to step on the toes of hunters, but the right to keep and bear arms has absolutely nothing to do with hunting specifically, beyond allowing hunters to own and use their guns like everybody else. The intent of the Second Amendment is to enable the preservation of a nation of free people against foreign and domestic enemies, which potentially include the federal government itself--in principle, it makes us citizens ("We The People") rather than subjects. Nowhere is hunting ever mentioned--the whole topic is merely a temporary concession on the part of anti-gunners to retain voters, and is embraced by pro-gunners as a contingency against losing our guns entirely. The language of the Second Amendment is, however, deliberately non-exclusive--we have the (individual) right to keep and bear arms, we don't have to justify it, and in my opinion shouldn't have to register anything because it's none of the government's business anyway (why should we have to inform a potential enemy of the people?).
 
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Two weeks ago, I was at a gun shop and purchased a Mossberg 500 without much trouble. Signed a few papers testifying that I'm not a criminal, and the shotgun and several boxes of ammo were in my car. Very easy and straightforward.

My handguns required a 24-hour waiting period, but also were purchased easily. I'm not finding any problems regarding the Second Amendment. If you need a weapon, you can purchase one. For CCW, I really like the way the cities I've lived in process the permit. At least a basic, simple series of steps are taken to ensure that you, the CCW owner, have had a modicum of training and you understand the law and handling requirements.

After all, if you opt for a CCW permit, you are essentially becoming a member of the militia, per the Second Amendment. It is not acceptable to own firearms and have no idea how to use them. These are serious tools and some basic, simple training is needed to operate them safely in a manner that does not endanger your fellow law-abiding citizens.
 
ter all, if you opt for a CCW permit, you are essentially becoming a member of the militia, per the Second Amendment. It is not acceptable to own firearms and have no idea how to use them. These are serious tools and some basic, simple training is needed to operate them safely in a manner that does not endanger your fellow law-abiding citizens.
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I don't mean to argue with you but you bring up a common point, that the CCW training is "good" for shooters because it makes us all safer.

If this is the case then why are the incidents of accidental shootings not higher in states that require no such training? There are several states that allow carry with no training and no permits.

I don't mean to be rude but it's this kind of thinking that gets us in trouble. Going off of "feelings" and "gut reaction" rather than taking a look at actual facts has put us in the position of accepting things that are infringements on our rights simply because it "seems like a good idea" and that concerns me.
 
I don't mind waiting. And I don't mind background checks. I spent over 20 years working in mental health, and I can tell you....there are people out there who should NEVER, under any circumstances own a firearm. Do the laws that make things harder for responsible gun owners stop any really determined nut case from getting a gun? Nope. But it may in most cases. And while it is a pain in my neck to sometimes have to wait a few days to pick up my gun, I still get it.
 
I hope this isn't too far off the topic but I was thinking about the NRA the other day and some of the opinions I see stated on this forum. It actually made me mad for a minute thinking about the people who say they won't become a NRA member due to the junk mail or other solicitations.

This organization is doing almost all the research for us, condensing important issues into alerts for us so we can spend hours of our time arguing about whether or not Glocks explode but some people can't be bothered to place an envelope in the trash or delete an E-Mail. I just don't get that.

-Chris
 
What is the big deal about a carry permit anyway. WHY does one need to carry a weapon to Walmart, the grocery store, or to the park to walk you dog. If this country ever got to the point of mayheim, I doubt carry permits wouuld be an issue. I love guns, I love my country. What point am I missing here??????
 
The second amendment means zero infringement.

Zero.

If someone "shouldn't have a gun" they shouldn't be in society to begin with, there shouldn't be anything in place hampering a free man's ability to acquire or use a firearm. A dangerous person is dangerous whether or not they're armed.

Anyone who feels otherwise is a traitor to America and should be considered said dangerous person and removed from society as appropriate.


grahng, you are a shining example of what I just said. You have no love of freedom, you are a traitor.
 
I agree with everybody. I beleive the 2A says what it says but I do agree there are certain mental illness' that should prevent someone from getting a firearm. I belive that the commission of certain crimes should prevent someone from geting a firearm. I belive that persons who spend most of thier lives in a drug induced stupor should not be allowed firearms. I belive that illegal aliens should not be allowed firearms.
 
Aran, I think you are a sick puppy. I served in our military for 22 plus years.
Please answer my question, why do you really need to carry that weapon to Walmart.........period? I fully agree with the 2nd Amendment!! We do have a right to own and bear arms........but are you going to be cowboy Joe going to Walmart?
 
Can you tell me with 100% certainty when I may need to defend myself for the next 75 years?

If not, do not judge me when I provide my own means for protection.
 
What is the big deal about a carry permit anyway. WHY does one need to carry a weapon to Walmart, the grocery store, or to the park to walk you dog. If this country ever got to the point of mayheim, I doubt carry permits wouuld be an issue. I love guns, I love my country. What point am I missing here??????
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Are you serious? (I hate the web sometimes because "obvious" sarcasm becomes hard to discern...)

Maybe because death at the hands of violent criminals happens every day to folks from all walks of life, and the collapse of society as we know it ... doesn't generally?

CCW licenses don't have ANYTHING to do with the country at "the point of mayheim." (SIC) They allow responsible citizens to go about their every-day lives with some substantial means of self-defense against sudden, violent predation -- and while staying in compliance with the laws of their jurisdiction.

Yes, if the country ever descends into anarchy and massive civil unrest, a CCW permit won't mean anything.

But why would you worry about what is fairly unlikely to ever happen in our lifetimes, but not concern yourself with what could happen today, tomorrow, or next week, without any warning at all, in the midst of a peaceable, orderly society?

Penny wise, pound foolish.

-Sam
 
grahng said:
What is the big deal about a carry permit anyway. WHY does one need to carry a weapon to Walmart, the grocery store, or to the park to walk you dog. If this country ever got to the point of mayheim, I doubt carry permits wouuld be an issue. I love guns, I love my country. What point am I missing here??????
Click to expand...
Do you not believe people get mugged or otherwise attacked going to WalMart or walking their dogs? The answer to your question seems pretty obvious to me.

-Chris
 
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