Where to start on pistol to sbr AR-15 build

[crimsoncomet]

Here is the deal. I have two AR lowers that were not bought as rifles or built as rifles. They are just plain jane recievers. I plan to build a pistol with one. Before everyone states that this is in the wrong section, it will become a SBR. I know this is the knowledgable section on transfers and legality issues.

My concern is how the lowers were transfered. I have no idea if they were transfered as rifle lowers or just recievers. I dont want to send paper work into the ATF with the serial number from a rifle lower stating its a pistol and will be converting into a SBR. Will this matter? How can I know how they were transfered? I got one in a trade. I am in Virginia BTW.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

You might be able to find out from the original manufacturer how it was transferred to the dealer who made the original sale. That would cover the one you took in trade. Where did you get the other? If you filled out a 4473 at a LGS, the shop will have it and can tell you how they transferred it to you. It should have been listed on the 4473 as "Other Firearm". http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Arguably, as has been discussed in here in the past, you could build the pistol, take a photo of it with some dated documentation (daily newspaper) and use that as 'proof' that it was a pistol at that point. Then, making it a rifle or SBR and converting it back to a pistol (if desired) becomes an easy thing.

If it turns out upon further investigation, that the receiver WAS originally built as a rifle, you can still make it into a SBR, but cannot go back to a pistol configuration except by retaining the SBR registration. (In other words, it is simply a SBR without a stock.)

There is a good bit of additional discussion over on the AR15 board (www.ar15.com) in the section on AR15 pistols and the NFA section as well.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Go ahead and build your pistol, then file your paperwork for SBR.When you get your stamp,stock it. In the case you decide you no longer want a SBR and notify ATF that you no longer want a SBR. you can't revert back to a pistol due to the reason you have stocked that particular receiver and is now a rifle. You can convert a pistol to a rifle and back ,but to my knowledge you can't do the same with a SBR if you don't want the receiver as a SBR anymore.

 

[crimsoncomet]

Thanks guys. Looks like i need to make a call to my dealer on hte one i purchased. I will check with the guy that i got the lower from in a trade and see if he knows about the other.

So i need to photo document when i build it as a pistol, that way i can one day go back to the pistol from an SBR? Correct? Thanks again.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

just curious , do you still have the box the receiver came in?

the last ruling I read was if the receiver never had a stock attached it could be built as either.
I have a couple of stag lowers still in the boxes with serial#'s,did the research on doing s pistol.
Local ATF said ok to do....but different offices seem to interpret the laws different.

 

[crimsoncomet]

No. I sure dont. Neither had a box when they came into my possesion. The only box i have is for the lower that is waiting for a stamp right now

 

[PBR Streetgang]

you can do any configuration you want after getting your stamp.........it's still a sbr,even without a stock.....

 

[tepin]

Email the manufacturer and go back to the FFL you purchased them (lowers) from and make sure he put them on the 4473 as 'other' and not rifle or long-gun. One of my FFLs screwed this up.

Here is what I did / am doing:
0. Form NFA Trust (done)
1. Bought 10.5" upper (done)
2. Built pistol (done)
3. Send 2nd lower out for engraving (30 days & still waiting)
4. Ensure engraving is correct (pending)
5. Build out engraved lower (pending)
6. Complete ATF form 1 (pending)
7. Double-check everything (pending)
8. Mail forms and money order (pending)
9. Wait 7 months
10. Move 10.5" upper from pistol to SBR (pending)

 

[dogtown tom]

If it's a stripped lower, its an "Other Firearm" period.

What the dealer checked on the 4473 has ZERO bearing on the status of a lower receiver. What DOES matter is that ATF considers a stripped lower as an "Other firearm".....meaning it is neither a handgun nor long gun. The Form 4473 cannot change what the firearm actually is. If a dealer checked "Long Gun" on your Kimber 1911 or Glock do you think that actually makes it a long gun? It doesn't.


Prior to 2008 there was no provision on a Form 4473 to record "Other Firearm". The choices were "Handgun", "Long Gun" or "Both". The 4473 was revised in August 2008 to replace "Both" with "Other Firearm".

PBR Streetgang .....the last ruling I read was if the receiver never had a stock attached it could be built as either.

Not correct. A "complete" lower (with stock attached) is still an "Other Firearm". It does not become a "Long Gun" until it has BOTH shoulder stock AND a barrel attached.

 

[tepin]

The problem with the FFL checking "long-gun" on the 4473 is that there is no way to prove that the lower wasn't built into a rifle after the manufacturer shipped the lower to the FFL. In theory, the FFL could have assembled a rifle from a stripped lower and sold it. Who can say.

In this ATF letter (second paragraph last sentence) the ATF specifically recommends verifying the dealer selects 'other' on the 4473 and not 'rifle'.

In this ATF letter (see question #1) the ATF makes mention on the importance of knowing that the pistol to be made was never a rifle.

The point is, it doesnt take a lot of effort to make sure the lower is virgin. An email to the manufacturer and talking to the FFL is all it takes.

If it's a stripped lower, its an "Other Firearm" period.

What the dealer checked on the 4473 has ZERO bearing on the status of a lower receiver. What DOES matter is that ATF considers a stripped lower as an "Other firearm".....meaning it is neither a handgun nor long gun. The Form 4473 cannot change what the firearm actually is. If a dealer checked "Long Gun" on your Kimber 1911 or Glock do you think that actually makes it a long gun? It doesn't.


Prior to 2008 there was no provision on a Form 4473 to record "Other Firearm". The choices were "Handgun", "Long Gun" or "Both". The 4473 was revised in August 2008 to replace "Both" with "Other Firearm".

 

[rjrivero]

The problem with the FFL checking "long-gun" on the 4473 is that there is no way to prove that the lower wasn't built into a rifle after the manufacturer shipped the lower to the FFL. In theory, the FFL could have assembled a rifle from a stripped lower and sold it. Who can say.

A Type 1 FFL can not do that. Most FFL's are Type 1. In order to manufacture a firearm to sell for profit, one must have a Manufacturing License. (Type 7 or Type 10)

 

[MasterSergeantA]

tepin...

The second letter you cite has a dead link. I would like to see it. Can you repost? It came up as a "docs.google.com" while the other one was in Photobucket.

 

[Magoo]

links worked for me

 

[dogtown tom]

Hows this for a hypothetical:

John buys a stripped lower from Palmetto State Armory.
PSA ships it to Dogtown Tom for transfer to John...I log it in as "Other firearm"

John comes in, completes a 4473/NICS and I note on his 4473 that he acquired an "Other firearm".


John goes home and over the next week builds the PSA lower into a rifle.
John shoots, hunts, plinks and plays with his new rifle. All is good.


Two days/weeks/months/years later, John decides he wants a LaRue lower.....its expensive, but if he sells off his PSA lower it won't sting the wallet so much.

So....John removes buttstock and buffer from the PSA lower and puts it up for sale.

Mike sees the WTS ad on THR and agrees to buy John's PSA lower.
John ships the PSA lower to a licensed dealer in Mike's state.

When the dealer opens the package he will record the PSA lower as an "Other Firearm".......not as a "rifle"...............as ATF maintains that a rifle has BOTH a shoulder stock and barrel.

On the 4473 that Mike will complete the dealer checks "Other Firearm".


Mike goes home and builds a pistol AR.


When I posed this to my IOI in 2008, he declined to address whether Mike was committing a felony by making that lower into a pistol. He just smiled and said "AR lowers, frames and receivers are "other firearms".....not long guns or handguns".

The 1934 National Frearms Act is outdated and obsolete. The idea of a single frame or receiver being used to manufacture handguns OR rifles wasn't in their minds when Congress drafted that legislation. Now seventy odd years later ATF has to apply this antiquated and poorly written law to modern firearms. It leads to ATF determination letters that attempt to guide us through a poorly written law.

"Once a rifle, always a rifle"?

Nope.

 

[tepin]

The link worked for me. Here it is again:
Second letter here

And here as plain text

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/edit#

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Thanks, but still no joy here. Must be an issue with the system I am on.

 

[rjrivero]

Thanks, but still no joy here. Must be an issue with the system I am on.

It's a google document, so you may have to be logged onto a google account to view it.

 

[Landric]

The good news is that the form 1 doesn't ask what type of firearm you are turning into an SBR (Handgun, Rifle, Etc.). My 9mm SBR was made from a Complete CMMG lower that I bought new. It was transfered as "other" because it was neither a rifle or pistol in the configuration it was in at the time. I never built it into a pistol, but I could have removed the stock and done just that, since it was never built as a complete rifle.

My point is that my form 1 said I was making a CMMG MK-9 into an SBR. It didn't say CMMG MK-9 Pistol or CMMG MK-9 Rifle. You do not have to say anywhere on the form 1 that you are turning your AR pistol into an SBR, you just have to put the model number of the lower, the serial #, etc.

So, if somehow one got a stripped lower that was actually originally built as a rifle (and one had no idea), and then illegally (unknowingly) built it as a pistol, then later registered it as a SBR, then the BATFE wouldn't have a paper trail showing the (unintended) violation. Even if BATFE had a 4473 showing the lower was originally a rifle (or other proof) and an approved form 1 for an SBR, the form 1 wouldn't say anything about the host firearm being a pistol to begin with.