Which 6 MM Rifle and Cartridge?

[OrangeCat]

Sorry if this is a little off topic but I have been following the thread for a while and didn't want to start a new one......would there be any benefit to a shooter on a budget getting a 6.5 cm if they already have a 6.5x55. I was listing towards .243 (it's pretty inexpensive and common around here) but after this thread I'm not so sure.

 

[mshootnit]

Good call out. The CZ or Ruger American as well. I haven’t quite developed the habit of recommending the Grendel, maybe only because the Howa wasn’t great for what I was trying to do, and there’s not a lot else out there for 6.5 Grendel rifles, but this round really should be considered.

I have said for probably 10-15years now, the 243win is (and those like it are) probably the most efficient and effective deer hunting round(s) on the market. No concessions needed for typical 0-600yrds, any shot I would take on a deer with a 30-06, I would take with a 243win. It did take me about 10yrs of hunting deer with larger rounds and only dabbling with the 243win for whitetails to reach that realization. Now after ~15years with the Grendel, I’m realizing it’s becoming my new “ground floor” for deer hunting. Any shot I would take on whitetail deer while hunting in typical conditions, excluding a highly engineered long range hunt where I wouldn’t even choose a .30-06, I would be happy to take with a 6.5 Grendel. It also carries with it ~25% less powder use, lower recoil, and less blast than the 243win, 6mm Creed rifles.

As our country is healing from the magnumitus of generations past, folks are realizing how effective these smaller cartridges really are when paired with modern bullet designs and utilizing higher external ballistic understanding than the past.

I don't know. almost all game animals are taken at ranges where the advantages of super long bullets are not realized.
I think for target sports and long range bench shooting, the slow creeedmooors are an improvement.
But for hunting I have seen enough coyotes and deer taken in real world hunting situations with cartridges like 223 Remington, 6mm Remington to ever let myself fall into the belief that these old cartridges are somehow inferior.
The only detraction of the magnums, is that they usually induce flinching. And they are usually sported by once-a-year warriors. They can cause some of the bullets to blow up.
But not ALL magnums, and not at all ranges. I have a 270 WSM shooting 130 gr. Sierra GK . I have shot deer quartering severely away (nearly arse) at 100 yds, broadside at 30 yds, and out to 375 yds.

 

[mshootnit]

Just like the magnumitis, the creedmoehr is also a fad.
People will realize that a slower pointier bullet still dont bring home the bacon any better than daddys 270 stoked with 130's.
Not when you put them both on sticks in the field.
As long as they keep making 6mm Rem brass and nobody forces me to grab a Creedmoor I will be happy.

 

[Varminterror]

Ok... you want a cookie?

I’ve sold literally hundreds of coyotes taken with a .223rem. Doesn’t mean the 223rem is better as a deer rifle than a 6.5 creedmoor. Your example is non-sequitur.

If almost all deer are taken at ranges where aerodynamics aren’t important, you’re also effectively asserting almost all deer are taken at ranges where magnum and long action cases don’t offer any advantage over these short action cartridges we’re discussing here.

 

[Varminterror]

As long as they keep making 6mm Rem brass and nobody forces me to grab a Creedmoor

Get off it, curmudgeon. Nobody is asking you to buy a Creedmoor.

The OP is asking what he should get, and you’re bringing up the toys in your toy box. There’s nothing a .270win does in deer woods a 6.5 creed doesn’t, but the three Walmart’s within 40min of my house only carry ONE .270 load, and three to five 6.5 creedmoor loads. There’s not a single 270win rifle on the rack there. But there ARE 6.5 creeds. So you can hate on it all you want, nobody is asking you to change. For the reloader, what do I gain by pouring ~50% more powder into the case to push a 130 a couple hundred FPS faster? Nothing.

You and GR should get your old rifles together and pat each other on the backs, you have it all figured out.

 

[LRDGCO]

....
The OP is asking what he should get, and you’re bringing up the toys in your toy box. There’s nothing a .270win does in deer woods a 6.5 creed doesn’t, but the three Walmart’s within 40min of my house only carry ONE .270 load, and three to five 6.5 creedmoor loads. There’s not a single 270win rifle on the rack there. But there ARE 6.5 creeds...

Terribly contradictory. You just finished making the case for the 6.5 Dashed from your toy box AND asserting that ubiquity and Wal-Mart ammo availability are utterly absurd considerations in a hunting rifle in a very similar thread. Some logical consistency would lend greater credibility to at least one of these contradictory assertions.

 

[LoonWulf]

Terribly contradictory. You just finished making the case for the 6.5 Dashed from your toy box AND asserting that ubiquity and Wal-Mart ammo availability are utterly absurd considerations in a hunting rifle in a very similar thread. Some logical consistency would lend greater credibility to at least one of these contradictory assertions.

I believe he was simply pointing out popularity, by availability, of the CM. It illustrates that it's not a fad. A point I agree with.

I'll say this tho, there's a lot of folks here who think the CMs a magic laser of some sort. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I've yet to hear of a usage that it hasn't lived up to that reputation.
The fast twist and long bullets also allow for some unusually heavy hunting projectiles, and the long throats can actually achieve pretty decent velocity with those big, long bullets.

The heavier bullets do give it an edge on the .243 on medium game imo, and it does shoot flat enough to make hold on fuzz hits out to 300yds or so pretty easily.

Honestly I like odd stuff, but as a general use rifle a 6.5CMs pretty hard to beat.

 

[medic68]

What do you like most about the CZ's? If you could only afford one what would it be? I appreciate your, and everyone here's cordiality!

 

[Varminterror]

@LoonWulf is correct - I referrenced walmart availability not because I recommend anyone shop there, nor recommend anyone use Walmart inventories as a determinant factor in selecting a cartridge. But inventory at the common man’s second favorite store is indicative of market interest, and it’s just a fact - the 6.5 creedmoor is the highest selling new rifle chambering every year for a handful of years now. If the 6.5 Creedmoor is a “fad,” then it’s a bigger fad than the 270 or 243win ever were. It’s really a remarkable study in our current economy - most trends are flash-in-the-pan due to fickle consumerism, but the Creedmoor has enjoyed higher popularity and longer sustainment in popularity than any other cartridge introduced in the last 50yrs.

Never did I recommend the 6 Dasher for the OP. I was asked - individually - what I use in the way of 6mm’s. So I answered. I did, however, recommend the 243win and 6 creed, knowing the OP is a reloader, but and recommended a pathway to great brass life and great brass quality whether any 308 based cartridge were selected.

An entire generation of shooters fell victim to “speed kills,” so we saw rounds like 7mm RM 243win, 260rem, 22-250, and 270win get pumped out with most of them pushing light-for-capacity bullets very fast. Then came along even smaller cases which use less powder, but with appropriate twists for the tasks at hand, and they gained footing. The 223rem has been a crowd favorite among colony varminters and coyote hunters over the 22-250 for decades, despite giving up a couple hundred feet per second. Why? Because it is more versatile. A guy can run less powder and kill coyotes just as well, just as far, or even farther with the right bullet, with better barrel life. Where’s the downside? Complaining about a tenth mil difference in arch height between 0 and 300? Ok... But that battle happened many moons ago, so folks are still happy to complain about the SAME IMPROVEMENTS being made over the 243win or 260rem/6.5x55.

If a handful of companies would have simply brought out a series of fast twist 243win and 260 Rem rifles 20 years ago, and managed their way around length restrictions with appropriate chamber and mag boxes, we likely wouldn’t have had any interest in the 6.5 or 6 creed. But we’ve been building custom rifles in 243AI, 6 SLR, fast twist 243win, 6mm Comp Match (not to be confused with 6mm CreedMoor), etc for as long as the 243win has been around. Why is that? Why put in so much effort to make those changes? Because the 243win is VERY close to VERY good, but it does have drawbacks which limit its efficacy in multiple arenas. We’ve been begging it to manage heavier bullets for decades. Now, the begging can stop, because a turn-key solution is on the market.

A guy can cry on behalf of new buyers who are picking the new round and “missing out” on older, great cartridges like 6.5x55, 7-08, 257roberts, 7mm Mauser, 6mm Rem, etc. But a guy can also cry on behalf of the old curmudgeons who are so insulted that someone prefers a new model more than their old model that they can’t bring themselves to acknowledge the advancement and try something different.

 

[Walkalong]

Caliber wars. Different day, different ones, same thing.

but that battle happened many moons ago, so folks are still happy to complain about...........

Caliber A vs B.

Doesn't matter what the caliber is today, yesterday, or what it will be tomorrow, people love to debate caliber.


Back in the day when they came out the 6MM Remington and the .243 Winchester were near ballistic twins, but the guns for 6MM had faster twists for varmint bullets where the .243 had a faster twist and utilzed the heavier and better built for hunting bullets. So the varmint getters were happy with their 6MMs and the hunters dropped it like a hot rock. The 6MM Remington almost died out and the .243 became a wildly popular deer caliber.

Over barrel twist and end use. Not as many custom choices back in those days, you ran what the factories put out for the most part.

 

[adcoch1]

While not a reason to buy or not buy a specific rifle, the Walmart ammo litmus test brings up a good point. 243, and 6.5 creedmoor are well stocked, but at least local to me nobody has 6.5 Grendel. So you need to think about component supply chain a little, but most ar sized cartridges are worth it for what they so efficiently offer.

 

[<*(((><]

Imagine two different cartridges loaded with the same, long bullet to a magazine length of 2.82". One has the bullet seated deep into the case to fit in the mag, leaving the bullet .2" off the lands with no room for adjustment, the bullet ogive may also be below the case mouth. The same bullet can be seated in the other case all the way to the lands, or deeper, wherever best accuracy is found, all at mag length or less. Both cases have about the same net case capacity loaded to mag length. Which case is preferable? It's not really a zero sum game, for factory rifles and limited mag lengths, one is better and one is worse.

OP,
Is this rifle for hunting, or just for range shooting? If you plan to use it for hunting, what animals do you plan to shoot at what ranges? If it's just for targets and steel, even the lowly .223 can be a lot of fun at 600 yds and in as long as the wind isn't too bad.

If you want to do some hunting and range shooting, a 6.5mm or 6mm would be a good bet. I'd never suggest anyone buy a .260 over a 6.5 Creedmoor, you'd have to look much harder to find rifles/ammo, and wind up with an inferior package for your extra effort.

In 6mms, I would personally lean towards the 6mm Creedmoor, it's a better design for shooting heavy bullets out of the box, but unlike in the case of the 6.5s, the 6mm Creedmoor is not nearly as popular (yet?) as the .243. If you do go with a .243, be sure to get one with a decent twist rate. You couldn't give me another .243 with a 10 twist, been there and done that, it really gimps the cartridge for heavy bullet use.

Well said!

The Creedmoors are nothing more than taking previous cartridges, analyzing what they do good and what are the inherent deficiencies (twist rate of rifles chambered for them, new bullet technology out stripping the older cartridges design i.e. longer higher bc bullets, neck design, case life, throat erosion, etc.) and improving on them. I think its superb that designers chose to make small but verifiable improvements to older cartridges rather than try and squeeze a new caliber between an all too congested list of calibers.

People have their pet caliber and don't like when someone else gets into the .243 WIN sandbox or the .260/6.5x55 sandbox. I'm happy with my boring .308 WIN but can see why people are drawn to different cartridges or new cartridge design, especially with an ever changing powder, bullet and rifle designs coming out.

It seems to me for the 6mm caliber it comes down to what is important to the OP:

1. Ammo availability?
2. Target Performance?
3. Hunting Performance?
4. Reloading Avaliability?
5. Barrel Longevity?

Seems to me the OP wants a rifle to practice shooting at distances around 600 yards as well as take varmints up to deer sized game with a low recoiling cartridge, correct? Well any of the target oriented 6mm (6mmBR, 6mm Dasher would be overkill and limit brass availability and options for factory ammunition. Seems to me the best option for the OP criteria would be to get a 1:9 twist .243 WIN, gives you the benefit of commercial ammuntion as well as a plethora of reloading materials with a twist rate suitable for longer high BC bullets. The barrel life I wouldn't consider much of a problem for the OP as it sounds like its a rifle not dedicated to target work, but also for varmint and deer hunting. And in the grand scheme of things what is $2-400 down the road when the accuracy starts to fall off for a new barrel.

 

[LoonWulf]

What do you like most about the CZ's? If you could only afford one what would it be? I appreciate your, and everyone here's cordiality!

Personally I'm not a huge fan of CZ rifles specifically, and I'm not familiar with the newest generation.
They offer some great iterations of the Mauser design, usually have pretty nice stocks, and are usually pretty accurate.
I don't have any great love for control round feed actions, so while I've used a few over the years, and just ordered a 527, I usually gravitate to other brands.
For someone looking for what the old cz's offered (new ones are pushfeed and I'll need to look at those a little more closely), they are a very good option. Rugers are a little cheaper, Winchester's a little more, each have distinct enough differences to warrant a look.

 

[Picher]

The .243 Win has amazed me so much that I got another. One day a couple of years ago, two of my grand-daughters, aged 14 and 16, shot my .243 Win, Tikka T3, at a metallic silhouette 180 yards away that had a 4" dia. white-painted spot. They were standing, resting the rifle over a sandbag on the back of my pickup deck. One made a 1" two-shot group and the other a 1 3/4" two-shot group. Deadly girls!!!

The T3 has impressed me very much, allowing me to make a head-shot on a coyote that was running away from me at 200 yards. It was dead before it hit the ground. The Tikka has also killed three deer, including a nice buck at 200 yards for me. It's really great to carry long distances, but I tell the kids to not shoot beyond 200 yards, just because we need to drop deer in the woods road or we might not be able to find them in heavy growth on each side.

Another .243, a Rem 700 ADL was originally a .22-250 but rebarreled to better deal with eastern coyotes in our windy blueberry fields and it's taken several. It has a Pac-Nor stainless 1:9 barrel that shoots fantastic. It's pillar-bedded and barrel free-floated. The Timney trigger is adjusted to 2.2 lbs. and it breaks like glass.


It's taken.

 

[mshootnit]

Ok... you want a cookie?

I’ve sold literally hundreds of coyotes taken with a .223rem. Doesn’t mean the 223rem is better as a deer rifle than a 6.5 creedmoor. Your example is non-sequitur.

If almost all deer are taken at ranges where aerodynamics aren’t important, you’re also effectively asserting almost all deer are taken at ranges where magnum and long action cases don’t offer any advantage over these short action cartridges we’re discussing here.

Dude, I literally never hit "post" on my rant, because I just thought Oh heck I'm ranting...so I just closed out... I have no idea how that post went up on the board, but yes now you know how I was feeling for about 8 minutes last night.

Get off it, curmudgeon. Nobody is asking you to buy a Creedmoor.

The OP is asking what he should get, and you’re bringing up the toys in your toy box. There’s nothing a .270win does in deer woods a 6.5 creed doesn’t, but the three Walmart’s within 40min of my house only carry ONE .270 load, and three to five 6.5 creedmoor loads. There’s not a single 270win rifle on the rack there. But there ARE 6.5 creeds. So you can hate on it all you want, nobody is asking you to change. For the reloader, what do I gain by pouring ~50% more powder into the case to push a 130 a couple hundred FPS faster? Nothing.

You and GR should get your old rifles together and pat each other on the backs, you have it all figured out.

You ain't wrong.

 

[Varminterror]

Dude, I literally never hit "post" on my rant, because I just thought Oh heck I'm ranting...so I just closed out... I have no idea how that post went up on the board, but yes now you know how I was feeling for about 8 minutes last night.

Been there. Between bypassing my social filter or placing insomnia bids on GunBroker, some nights get a little more exciting than others.

 

[Walkalong]

Heck, let's all have a cookie and a laugh. Plenty of flavors for everybody, guns too.

 

[Varminterror]

My wife tells me I'd live longer if I didn't eat so many cookies. I told her, if the choice is between cookies and living LONGER without cookies.... Pass the Oreos...

 

[mavracer]

Pass the Oreos...

You never hear, gee what a healthy looking corpse.

 

[Gtscotty]

Dude, I literally never hit "post" on my rant, because I just thought Oh heck I'm ranting...so I just closed out... I have no idea how that post went up on the board, but yes now you know how I was feeling for about 8 minutes last night.

You ain't wrong.

On the topic of posting problems, am I the only one who is constantly fighting some kind of messed up spelling or grammar check to post on this site. Like hit the backspace once and three previously typed words get combined, hit a recommend next word on my phone and a totally different word is injected instead.... Just weird stuff, I would think it's my phone, but it only happens on the THR mobile site.

 

[MCMXI]

How about the 6.5mm x 47 Lapua? A Savage Axis with a new barrel could work and would probably meet your $600 budget. You mentioned loading your own ammo and there might be some advantages to go with a cartridge that isn't ubiquitous but is an excellent alternative in every way.

I'm placing an order for a rifle chambered in the Lapua next week. I already load that round for my gf's custom rifle, and despite regularly shooting a 6.5 CM I decided that I'd like a 6.5mm x 47 too. I'm drawn to the low ES numbers, good quality Lapua SRP brass that's readily available, also readily available Varget which works well and I have a ton of, and of course the accuracy/precision. Another plus is that it's a cool cartridge that's marginally softer shooting than the 6.5 CM, but as others have observed, I doubt anyone would notice the difference. I don't hunt with the CM and wouldn't hunt with the Lapua either so that doesn't enter into the decision process for me.

 

[medic68]

Thoughts on the Christensen Arms Mesa Long Range in 6.5 Creedmore? I have a guy who's willing to trade me his NIB for a couple of my NIB safe queen pistols. I've come to the conclusion that 6.5 Creedmore is where I'm heading. Varminterror, Loonwulf et al, can't thank all of you enough for the constructive input.

 

[mshootnit]

On the topic of posting problems, am I the only one who is constantly fighting some kind of messed up spelling or grammar check to post on this site. Like hit the backspace once and three previously typed words get combined, hit a recommend next word on my phone and a totally different word is injected instead.... Just weird stuff, I would think it's my phone, but it only happens on the THR mobile site.

That exact problem happens on my phone too on this site

 

[mshootnit]

Thoughts on the Christensen Arms Mesa Long Range in 6.5 Creedmore? I have a guy who's willing to trade me his NIB for a couple of my NIB safe queen pistols. I've come to the conclusion that 6.5 Creedmore is where I'm heading. Varmeterror, Loonwulf et al, can't thank all of you enough for the constructive input.

Those have an incredibly smooth bolt throw.

 

[LoonWulf]

You never hear, gee what a healthy looking corpse.

Watch the Ironman triathlon in person.....my general thoughts usually arnt that flattering, but along similar lines.