Which big bore rifle/cartridge for subsonic hunting

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Gtscotty

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So I've been toying around for a while with the idea of getting a big bore rifle/suppressor combo that would work well for sub 75 yd deer hunting. I'd be interested to hear who has done it, what you used, and how it worked.

The main two cartridges and rifles I'm currently looking at are the .44 Mag in a Ruger 77/44, and the .45/70 in a Marlin 1895GS.

The pro's and con's of each as I see it are:

.44 mag/Ruger 77/44:

Pro's
-I'm already set up to load .44 in quantity.
-.44 bullets are designed for lower velocities, so with a decent 300 gr hollow point I should get some expansion.
-Ruger 77/44 is twisted fast enough that I should be able to use most available .44 bullet weights.
-Cheaper

Con's
-.429<.458
-I'd be stuck with the Ruger as all the lever guns (which I'd prefer) seem to use too slow of a twist.
-Bullet weights are limited to a tad over 300gr

.45/70 Marlin 1895GS:

Pro's
-.458>.429
-Very heavy bullet weights available
-Available in a decently twisted lever gun, 1895's are twisted such that I should be able to stabilize 500 gr bullets
-Full power loads should be good for just about anything I'd hunt

Con's
-.458 Bullets are probably not going to expand at subsonic velocities
-Will use more powder for the same velocity, probably won't be as quiet as .44 mag
-More recoil in regular powered loads.
-More expensive.

I'm interested to hear yall's thoughts, experiences and ideas on the subject.
 
I have an 1895G Marlin in 45-70. Good shooter. You can load down or load up as needed. I am not sure I get the point about the bullets not expanding at lower velocities. I would think that depends on the bullet. It does give you a lot of options.

45 Colt anyone? I also have a Rossi 92 in 45 Colt. Good shooter. There are lots of options with 45 Colt in a modern rifle. Load anywhere from slow to fast depending your tastes.
 
44 Special fired through a 44 MAG rifle is subsonic. It will probably kill a deer with perfect broadside shot presentation at typical archery distances.

TR
 
For deer there is no real reason to go with the 45/70 over a .44 mag for the ranges you are contemplating. Guys have been using large bore airguns with under 1000 fps 30 cal and up on deer at even over 100 yards for years now. With a decent bullet they typically get pass through on broadside double lung shots.

I would consider a rebarrel with a better quality barrel of a better suited twist. Especially if you want the heavy projectile. A standard 240-300 grain will be a good balance for deer though.
 
I've thought about this one, too. If you really are set on the idea of not stretching the distance out too far (even someday...rifles last a long time. Will this just be for today, or for decades to come?) then I see no reason not to go with a .44 Mag/Spc.

I came to the same conclusions you did about twist rates, though. But it's probably easier to deal with the Ruger anyway, if you want to suppress it. Have the barrel cut back to 16" and threaded, put a 1x or 2x optic on it and go.
 
Why do you want to expand a round much that is already essentially expanded just by the very nature of its diameter. A 325 grain .458" slug going 1000+ FPS is going to do some serious damage to whatever it hits. A 300 grain 44 cal slug going 1000 fps is going to do serious damage to whatever it hits. Either are proven killers and shoot well out to 100+ yards even in heavy ground cover.
 
I have a suppressed 458 socom, subsonic, pretty much the same thing you would get with a 45-70 but using the same powders you would for the 44 mag.
 
Either would work pretty good at close range and I'd think with a hollow point of some sort. It would be a good idea to do a bit of testing in milk jugs of water or wet newspaper to see that there's enough penetration with some expansion to make a good wound cavity. Maybe even a run of the mill soft point?
 
.44Mag Ruger makes the most sense, although the only real drawback to a levergun would be having to shorten the magazine tube to get the muzzle threaded. That is because there is no need to go to 300gr bullets for deer and you don't really need expansion either. A good 250gr SWC or WFN will kill deer deader than fried chicken and fully penetrate from any angle.

Although if you did want to play with the heavyweights and take advantage of the Ruger's proper 1-20" twist, you could always load 320-355gr cast bullets into .44Spl cases (to fit the Ruger's magazine) and just handload into the 1000fps range without having to worry about what pressures you're running.

It would be nice if there was a good .45ACP carbine on the market for this kind of thing.
 
back more than 25 years ago before I knew better someone offered me for a couple hundred bucks a 45-70 Thompson Center Contender barrel about 18" long that someone had integrally suppressed with decent workmanship . I loaded some huge 525 grain cast bullets and with a chronograph was getting right under 1000 fps with some Unique powder. It was decently quiet and for a couple years deer quietly died eating my apples in the small orchard next to my house. I got rid of that no no in 1991 as I remember by taking it to a class 3 dealer in Oregon who papered it and sold it , I made $150 as I remember. Bottom line those big 45-70 bullets kicked like a .44 mag rifle with full loads and killed deer dead right now at over 100 yards.
 
If I may recommend: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=793467

Subsonic bullets, because of the sheer nature of the question, are speed-restricted. It takes one of the important factors out of the equation. So, it all boils down to the weight of the bullet and wound channel characteristics it's able to inflict.

A heavy, fairly rapidly expanding bullet is what you really want. A penetration of 10-12" for whitetail is sufficient, so you'll want to transfer as much energy as possible to the target and severe as many blood vessels and arteries as you can within these limitations.

It's not magic. Just careful consideration, preparing the best you can and once you're in the position to shoot, remembering that you won't get much of a hydrodynamic shock to stun the animal where it stands.
 
I have a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 Govt and an 1894 in .45 Colt as well as a Bushmaster in .450 Bushmaster. I'd love to get the. 45 Colt barrel threaded for the AAC Ti-RANT suppressor that I have as well as change the threads on the .450 BM to .578x28. That would be a lot of fun.
 
Two bullets, same caliber, same speed, the heavier one will have more energy and penetration. But it probably makes little difference on deer.
 
50 Alaskan, in a modified Marlin or Winchester (or Steyr M95)

500 Reedwhacker, from an AR15 (300 WSM cut down to the shoulder & stuffed with a 510 diameter slug)

Both use readily available 50-90, 500 nitro, and 50 BMG bullets (or portions thereof, in the case of the BMG). If you want expansion at a low velocity, just do a super-soft pure lead casting & powder coat the things.

TCB
 
Consider a Thompson Contender or Encore, easy to get the barrel you want there from a custom shop and threading it isn't hard. Lever guns can be a challenge and $$ to thread due to the front sight and magazine.

Single shot like a Contender is also nice in that you don't have to worry about the OAL of the round and it feeding in a magazine.

Plenty of 300BLK options out there now which come ready to go, threaded and all. However, I think 220gr is as heavy as they get. Lehigh makes a bullet that is supposed to expand at 1000fps but it is $$$$.

If you don't have the can yet make sure it will take the pressure of what you're trying to do. 500gr at 1000fps may be harder on a can than 220gr at the same speed (not a pro there, would ask the maker to be sure).

Short barrel is good since you're not looking for speed and the can makes them long again.

I like the 45-70 and think it may be hard to beat due to the weight it can throw.

Don't write off the 45LC and 45ACP, almost all ACP ammo is subsonic from the factory and should expand. Unless you reload (and even then) subsonic ammo for many calibers may be a challenge and get into stability issues. It is not a big bore thumper but .38SPC is nice and quiet, also easy to get sub ammo for in many loads.

Soft lead is an option but then you may have leading issues with your can.
 
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I've actually been toying with this idea for a couple years. Sitting in my stand in my native Ga, and watching deer walk within 50 yds of the base of the tree, over and over, it occurred to me that for a lot of the good really thick hunting spots, something heavy and subsonic should work fine. After starting to hunt rabbits and squirrels with a suppressed .22, I'm pretty well sold on the idea. At any rate, saved up cash and intent are coinciding right now.

I guess I thought expanding bullets (at subsonic velocities) would be a plus as when you're velocity limited, you'd want as much expansion as possible while still getting full penetration. The .458 bullets I've been looking at are generally intended for higher velocities, and perhaps bigger game.

These are more or less what I've been envisioning as a perfect subsonic deer bullets:

275gr
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=316

300gr
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=285

Lots of expansion, and hopefully enough mass to ensure pass-throughs on reasonable shots.

I think I'm leaning towards the Ruger 77/44, with a Liberty Cosmic as the suppressor. That way if I want to eventually get a .458 Socom upper, I could play with .458 subs as well. I wonder if it is possible to get the Ruger barrel shortened to 16", and then have a front sight added back that would work with a rear peep... Probably just easier to slap a scope or red dot on.

The local gun smith said that he could definitely thread a lever gun. $150 to thread and move the sight back, seemed pretty reasonable. I mostly wanted a lever gun because I don't have one, but I think the short, light bolt will meet my actual needs just as well.

The .45/70 has some real historical appeal, but on the other hand, my progressive is pretty much always set up for .44... The lazy reloader in me places significant value on the speed at which I can turn out .44.
 
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well I didn't see it mentioned above (but I did only kinda glance through them so I apologize if I repeat someone elses suggestion).

Go with the 45-70 and then if you need to shoot subsonic but want expansion then paper patch a 452 dia XTP or similar hollowpoint to the 458 dia you need. Generally you need to use .002 thick paper with about 2 to 3 wraps. it can be a pain but it will get you what you are looking for I think.

you can do the patched XTP 300 gr and then use a good dose of Trailboss so you won't have to worry about using a case filler.
 
I learned the hard way that moving a front sight back doesn't always work out, especially if the barrel it tapered. Another thing to keep in mind.

Not sure I would use a paper patch with a suppressor. Could be fine but would worry me.

45 can is a great place to start, hard to go wrong with that in my opinion. Will do most low pressure and pistol things.
 
In my opinion, shooting any sort of paper patched bullet through a suppressor is a very bad idea.

In any case, tumble lubing with powder paint is much easier, faster, just as accurate and the resulting bullets/ammo are far more forgiving of rough handling or wet conditions than paper patched bullets are.
 
AR platform in .458Socom.

Not a bad idea at all. It'll also have a sufficient case capacity for handloads with extremely heavy bullets and, along with .50 Beowulf, is a prime candidate for subsonic AR for medium/big game.
 
swampman,

should have mentioned it but my bad. I was just trying to provide a secondary avenue for the OP without going with a can. again my bad for not mentioning that.

BUT...as some have reported in Australia (sound suppressors are shelf items there) you just need extra clearance added...of course this would mean getting a can for say a 50 Beowulf...
 
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