Which bullet does the 9mm use that .40 S&W and .45 acp can't?

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Handgun rounds are all puny, especially the common defensive calibers like 9-40-45. They'll all do the job with accurate hits, and that's a much bigger deal than a minor ballistic advantage of one versus the others. Fact is 9mm is easier to shoot for most people and the ammo is the cheapest which probably equates to more practice. It probably shouldn't surprise anybody that 9mm is the most popular of the three by a wide margin.
 
Handgun rounds are all puny, especially the common defensive calibers like 9-40-45. They'll all do the job with accurate hits, and that's a much bigger deal than a minor ballistic advantage of one versus the others. Fact is 9mm is easier to shoot for most people and the ammo is the cheapest which probably equates to more practice. It probably shouldn't surprise anybody that 9mm is the most popular of the three by a wide margin.
What’s funny is that when talking about pistol-cartridge long guns just the opposite attitude is evident. My recent inquiry thread on that subject bear out what I am saying. At under 100 yards pistol cartridges are deemed quite sutable for mid-size game hunting. Higher energy doesn’t seem to be needed except to send the bullet further away without falling on the ground, not to make it harder hitting. So why when we talk about pistols would we think just the opposite? Are dudes harder to kill than elk?
 
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What’s funny is that when talking about pistol-cartridge long guns just the opposite attitude is evident. My recent inquiry thread on that subject near out what I am saying. At under 100 yards pistol cartridges are deemed quite sutable for mid-size game hunting. Higher energy doesn’t seem to be needed except to send the bullet further away without falling on the ground, not to make it harder hitting. So why when we talk about pistols would we think just the opposite? Are dudes harder to kill than elk?

9-40-45 out of any platform isn't suitable for big game hunting as far as I'm concerned, especially on something like an elk. Not even close to suitable.
 
9-40-45 out of any platform isn't suitable for big game hunting as far as I'm concerned, especially on something like an elk. Not even close to suitable.
Maybe so, but those folks aren’t shooting squirrels at 100 yards. But let’s compromise on white tail.
 
Maybe so, but those folks aren’t shooting squirrels at 100 yards. But let’s compromise on white tail.

I don't think there was anyone suggesting that the 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W or 45 acp are suitable for hunting white tail.

There are folks who use 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, and 45 LC from rifles to effectively hunt them out to 100 yards and there are some intrepid souls who may use these calibers in a handgun to hunt deer. But only very silly and/or unethical chaps are using 9-40-45 to hunt deer. Indeed, we may hear from some of them momentarily.
 
(Though the average American black bear weighs about the same as the average adult American male yet nobody advocates 9mm for bear defense... Hmm...)
The person I know who has killed the most black bears, by far, (and I mean a ton, well over a couple hundred) has killed most of them with either a .22 LR or a 5mm Rem RF Mag. Honestly, the people advocating carrying anything for defense from black bears aren't really looking at the statistics real straight. You're more likely to get killed by a branch falling on you while hiking than you are to get killed by a black bear, and yet I see very few advocating the use of a hard hat while taking a walk in the woods.
 
I don't think there was anyone suggesting that the 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W or 45 acp are suitable for hunting white tail.

There are folks who use 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, and 45 LC from rifles to effectively hunt them out to 100 yards and there are some intrepid souls who may use these calibers in a handgun to hunt deer. But only very silly and/or unethical chaps are using 9-40-45 to hunt deer. Indeed, we may hear from some of them momentarily.
So if not deer, what would you hunt at 75-100 yards. Surely not chipmunk.
 
So if not deer, what would you hunt at 75-100 yards. Surely not chipmunk.

He just said in the quote you captured.

Did you read both paragraphs?

It seems you're selectively reading in order to make a point of exposing a contridiction that no one said.... or at least you haven't specifically cited.
 
He just said in the quote you captured.

Did you read both paragraphs?

It seems you're selectively reading in order to make a point of exposing a contridiction that no one said.... or at least you haven't specifically cited.
Okay, so it isn't no deer. It is not 9 mm, 40, or .45 calibers for deer. Fair enough. But we are still talking about pistol cartridges in the list he gave, not 2500 ft/sec rifle cartridges. And that is all I was really getting at.
 
I get it. "Modern" hollowpoint bullets are offering sufficient penetration and reliable expansion on denim/gel tests in 9mm. Also, there is no meaningful evidence from standardized testing that .40 or .45 is so superior in some criteria that it compels their selection over 9mm.

We know the result of the '86 Miami shootout was scrutinized because of what was perceived as a failure of 9mm (and .38 Special) ammo, and that largely contributed to the .40 S&W coming into existence and it's widespread adoption. Thirty years after the initial conclusions were made, more people and agencies are free to draw different conclusions, and those willing to justify the 9mm for various reasons like magazine capacity, recoil, grip size and so on, are released from what had become dogma.

What I'd like to know is what happened to 9mm and .45ACP that they're adequate in the age of the automobile. I thought the original onus for the .357 Magnum was the need for effectiveness when penetrating steel car bodies that had become ubiquitous in US culture by the 1930's. I'd venture to say that an overwhelming portion of officer-involved shootings still involve automobiles. I don't buy it that automobiles have become easier to shoot through. While automotive technology has changed, there's no evidence they're less of a barrier to handgun bullets. Someone could say body panels are thinner, but body and glass angles are also shallower and the steels are stronger with more layers in unibody construction than there was with the ladder frames. Now I'm not volunteering to protect myself from a hail of handgun fire with an ordinary Toyota, but back in the 30's, cops believed they needed greater penetration and that the .357 Magnum was the answer. There is certainly no question the .357 is still a lot more powerful than 9x19mm, .40 S&W, or .45ACP.
 
Modern bullets? I take that misnomer to mean any bullet made the past 15 years that expands at standard velocity for 9mm and meets FBI penetration specs.

The poster above me mentions vehicle body penetration and the metal panels of the car have become thinner and aluminum in some cars. The windows are the same, but it's not all about vehicles, but more barriers. I've yet to see evidence that 9mm penetrates barriers better than .40 or .45 even with "modern bullet design."

Several years ago when I was a .40 fanboy, I would say it's the best handgun cartridge, but as I've spent years looking at data and videos, I can conclusively say between 9mm, .40, and .45, when it comes to effect on people, they're going to have the same result if you hit the person where you need to to stop them. I still lean to .40 caliber because it is a larger, heavier bullet and that makes a difference when it comes to barrier penetration.

Does that mean I find myself needing to shoot through doors, wall, windows, etc. often? No, but if I need to, I like knowing it's going to be more effectively done with .40 than with 9mm.

The magazine capacity thing is silly because reloads are so fast with semi pistols that having two or more rounds in a mag isn't a big enough difference to matter. Having said that, I love 9mm carbines that use the 30+ round Glock magazines.

"So if mag capacity doesn't matter, why don't you like .45?" Price. .45 ACP is expensive compared to 9 and .40. Were .45 prices the same as .40, I would go with .45 instead, but 5 cents more a round for FMJ is expensive, prices for .45 JHP reach ridiculous levels compared to .40.

For a full size pistol, like a Glock 17/22, I think 40 is better than 9mm, but in a single stack or subcompact pistol, the 9mm is better. Bigger gun, bigger caliber and smaller gun, smaller caliber. Pretty simple.

Everybody tries to find the one caliber to do it all and that's wrongthink. Each caliber and cartridge has it's strengths, you just have to use them in the right gun. You don't put a .22 in a Desert Ealge, it's a waste, just as you don't put a .500 Magnum in a J-frame.
 
There are no "magic bullets" - only marketing. Shot placement is far more important than "magic bullets".
Don't tell this to the HST fanboys who fawn over the perfectly symmetrical expanded bullets and how the prices are "low" for such an amazing high quality.
 
Thereby making the 40 an answer to a problem that no longer exists.:what: :rofl:

Sorry, but this is wrong. 40 S&W is the answer to the question "How can I buy a high quality handgun for much less than I would otherwise expect to pay?"

As police departments and fad-driven shooters trade in their 40s in droves, super great deals are popping up on both new and used guns. And right now even ammo is crazy cheap compared to the top tier 9mm offerings. A case of the current 9mm darling (it's what I carry in my Kahr PM9) Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot is approaching $500. Within the last year I bought a case of Federal 180 grain HST in 40 S&W and paid $299. HST is considered to be top tier ammo as well.
 
Just talking about bullets, the 9mm enhanced performance like Winchester Rangers or black talon hollow points function in most semi automatic handguns without complications. 45s often find this is not the case. Lots of hollow points hang up in the action due to ramp angle of the 45. Just my experience YMMV.
 
I keep reading in threads all over the internet that 9mm is now just as good as .40 S&W and .45 acp due to "modern bullet design".

= Consider this and think about it =

Whatever changes/improvements made to enhance the performance of 9mm JHP/bonded/Thick plated HP (Speer Gold Dot) ALSO applies to 40S&W and 45ACP. ;)

Yes, I agree with statement that "some" 9mm JHP/bonded/HP performance is better than 20 years ago. BUT I will also state that "some" 40S&W/45ACP JHP/bonded/HP performance is better than 20 years ago. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
  • Between 17 rounds of 9mm vs 10 rounds of 40S&W, I will always choose 17 rounds of 9mm.
  • Between 10 rounds of 9mm vs 10 rounds of 40S&W, I will always choose 10 rounds of 40S&W.
My wife and many female coworkers prefer 10 rounds of 45ACP (They mumble something like "size does matter ..." :eek:

My sister prefers 10 rounds of 40S&W after shooting 9mm/40S&W/45ACP in various pistols ... Yeah, she is weird like me ... runs in the family. :D
 
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It's all about marketing. Almost every LEO agency in the country had 40 S&W handguns that will outlast the users by a good margin. Modern guns are just that durable. So they convinced everyone that 9mm was now superior. Once everyone switches to 9mm they will then convince us all to switch again. Been going on for ages now.
 
that same "modern bullet design" isn't being used by the other calibers to increase their effectiveness by the same margin.

The Ranger "T" Series is available in 9mm, 40 S&W and .45 ACP.

The 180gr 40 S&W RA40T penetrates about the same depth but expands a little more than the 9mm 147gr , the .45 ACP +P version of the Ranger "T" penetrates deeper and has a larger expanded diameter than either the 9mm or 40 S&W offering.

The chart shows Winchester's various offering in different calibers.

The issue isn't that the same "modern bullet design" isn't being used by the other calibers to increase their effectiveness by the same margin.

WinchesterRangerAmmo.gif
 
The trend to go to 9mm is not just law enforcement, the bad guys are switching to 9mm also. Back in 2012 my dept picked up more 40s then 9s. We had more shootings with 40s also. In the last two years I’ve been getting more 9mm gun and we’ve had more shootings with 9 mm.
The caliber is not the only thing that has changed. In 2012 an average amount of cartridge cases picked up at a crime scene was 2 to 7 rounds. Today the average is 6 to 20. We are also getting more shootings with 556 then 7.62x39.
There are two factors, I believe, that are the cause of this. Number one is magazine capacity. Number two is lighter recoil. Your average bad guy does not spend a lot of time at the range. He carries high capacity magazines so that he doesn’t have to reload.
The bad guys are also carrying better guns. This may make some of you cry but the bad guys love there Glocks. We pick up more Glocks then Beretta, Sig, Springfield and Ruger combined. But the S&W SD is still number one.
So you can discuss all day about what is better, but I see what is being used. Hollow points are popular, but we see a lot of FMJ. Now we have only had 84 homicides this year, but we’ve had a few hundred attempt murders too.
I wonder what would happen if the bad guys started reading gun magazines and gun forums.
 
I have been shooting handguns fairly regularly over the last 45 years, and I distinctly remember similar caliber debates from my early years. And I am willing to bet that similar debates will be had 45 years from now, assuming we still live then in a free country.

Just an observation. Take from it what you will.

BOARHUNTER
 
And to ensure the pot is completely stirred....

Though I own and carry handguns in 45 and 9 most of the time, my every day all-the-time carry is a well-used Smith 43C 22LR....

BOARHUNTER
 
I carry a 9mm. Not because I think its the end all be all. Not because its better than a 40 or a 45. Not because its a wonder caliber with wonder bullets. I choose it because the gun I like to carry comes in 9mm and fits in my front pocket. Chose the gun that works for you, and chose the caliber that fits in it. Otherwise we would all be carrying desert eagles.
 
The trend to go to 9mm is not just law enforcement, the bad guys are switching to 9mm also. Back in 2012 my dept picked up more 40s then 9s. We had more shootings with 40s also. In the last two years I’ve been getting more 9mm gun and we’ve had more shootings with 9 mm.
The caliber is not the only thing that has changed. In 2012 an average amount of cartridge cases picked up at a crime scene was 2 to 7 rounds. Today the average is 6 to 20. We are also getting more shootings with 556 then 7.62x39.
There are two factors, I believe, that are the cause of this. Number one is magazine capacity. Number two is lighter recoil. Your average bad guy does not spend a lot of time at the range. He carries high capacity magazines so that he doesn’t have to reload.
The bad guys are also carrying better guns. This may make some of you cry but the bad guys love there Glocks. We pick up more Glocks then Beretta, Sig, Springfield and Ruger combined. But the S&W SD is still number one.
So you can discuss all day about what is better, but I see what is being used. Hollow points are popular, but we see a lot of FMJ. Now we have only had 84 homicides this year, but we’ve had a few hundred attempt murders too.
I wonder what would happen if the bad guys started reading gun magazines and gun forums.
The move to 9mm and 556 has more to do with price and availability. You can go into Walmart, Cabela's, Academy, etc. and get both of those cartridges cheap; this is also why you're seeing a lot of FMJ.

Glocks and Sigma's are gonna be popular because they are light and don't have any safeties.

9mm pistols are move available for criminals to get because 9mm guns are more common.
 
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