Which bullet does the 9mm use that .40 S&W and .45 acp can't?

[TTv2]

It's all about marketing. Almost every LEO agency in the country had 40 S&W handguns that will outlast the users by a good margin. Modern guns are just that durable. So they convinced everyone that 9mm was now superior. Once everyone switches to 9mm they will then convince us all to switch again. Been going on for ages now.

I agree. The average patrol cop doesn't practice shoot much and those that do more than the minimum required still aren't shooting like they're SWAT officers.

The move back to 9mm is being made because it'll save departments a grand or so a year on ammo and it's easier for the cops that don't shoot beyond the minimum required to be more accurate.

I think at some point in the future, police are going to move to something that defeats soft body armor, but is still effective on unarmored suspects.

 

[BigBore45]

This is fairly easy. Go shoot steel and go hunting with each. You'll soon learn the truth.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The move to 9mm and 556 has more to do with price and availability. You can go into Walmart, Cabela's, Academy, etc. and get both of those cartridges cheap; this is also why you're seeing a lot of FMJ.

Glocks and Sigma's are gonna be popular because they are light and don't have any safeties.

9mm pistols are move available for criminals to get because 9mm guns are more common.

Back in 2012 up till 2016 we had more shootings with 40 S&W and also picked up more guns chambered in 40 S&W. it's just in the last two years that we are getting more 9mm. Another factor is that High capacity magazines for 9mm guns are more abounded and the Thugs love their extended magazines.
Academy is the biggest supplier of ammo to our Thugs. Academy has their ammo out where the customer has access to it. The Thugs send juveniles into the store to steal ammo. They open boxes and take 5 to 10 rounds and put them in their pocket. The local Academy stores have a container behind the counter with boxes of ammo missing rounds.
We asked Academy if they could limit access to ammo like most other stores, to which they advised that they would lose more in sales then what they lose to stolen ammo.
The reason that Glocks are more popular is because they work. The S&W Sigma and SD's are called the poor man's Glock.

 

[roo_ster]

Departments have been forced to hire smaller, dumber, and less experienced(1) candidates to fill their ranks. So, to alleviate one possible means of flunking the smaller, dumber, and less experienced(2) candidates, an easier-shooting service pistol is needed.

It is that easy. And it would have happened even if the bullet tech had remained stagnant.

FTR, I am not a .40S&W partisan. I skew toward 9x19mm or .45ACP depending on the application and find .40S&W the odd man out.

(1) Not mutually exclusive categories.
(2) With firearms.

 

[bearcreek]

I think at some point in the future, police are going to move to something that defeats soft body armor, but is still effective on unarmored suspects.

I'm skeptical that that's even possible. Depends what you mean by "effective" I guess.

 

[bearcreek]

This is fairly easy. Go shoot steel and go hunting with each. You'll soon learn the truth.

What has doing those led you to believe? I shoot a lot of steel and do a lot of hunting, (although admittedly not with a handgun). I've chosen to heed the advice of the men I know and have trained under who have actually used handguns, in a variety of calibers, to fight humans in real life, not in theory. That's why I carry a 9 mm.

 

[BigBore45]

What has doing those led you to believe? I shoot a lot of steel and do a lot of hunting, (although admittedly not with a handgun). I've chosen to heed the advice of the men I know and have trained under who have actually used handguns, in a variety of calibers, to fight humans in real life, not in theory. That's why I carry a 9 mm.

Ok. Good. A 9mm is better than nothing. Still killing a mammal around 150-250 lbs is all the same. So try hunting with those 3 calibers and let me know how that works out. You've had to have noticed the difference on big steel.

 

[bearcreek]

Ok. Good. A 9mm is better than nothing. Still killing a mammal around 150-250 lbs is all the same. So try hunting with those 3 calibers and let me know how that works out. You've had to have noticed the difference on big steel.

Did you read what I wrote? Tell you what. See if you can find a professional who has actually used a modern handgun to fight actual human beings in the last 15 years who recommends any other caliber over 9mm. The consensus amongst those with real experience is that caliber really makes very little or no difference and since 9 mm gives the best capacity for a given handgun size, that's what they carry.

 

[BigBore45]

Did you read what I wrote? Tell you what. See if you can find a professional who has actually used a modern handgun to fight actual human beings in the last 15 years who recommends any other caliber over 9mm. The consensus amongst those with real experience is that caliber really makes very little or no difference and since 9 mm gives the best capacity for a given handgun size, that's what they carry.

Ok. And done. Does not agree.

 

[bearcreek]

Ok. And done. Does not agree.

Is it someone whose credentials we can both verify? If so, it'd be the first I've heard of. The folks I've talked to who do have some handgun combat experience but are adamant about a particular caliber being best have almost universally been basing their opinion on experiences with military FMJ ammo.

 

[cheygriz]

People who shoot at targets carry 40s and 45s. People who shoot at people carry 9mms.

 

[Elkins45]

People who shoot at targets carry 40s and 45s. People who shoot at people carry 9mms.

Kentucky State Police still carry 40. I’m guessing they shoot more people a year than most people commenting in this thread.

Caliber wars are pointless.

 

[cheygriz]

And I'm guessing those 40s won't be around very long.

 

[BigBore45]

I'm

Is it someone whose credentials we can both verify? If so, it'd be the first I've heard of. The folks I've talked to who do have some handgun combat experience but are adamant about a particular caliber being best have almost universally been basing their opinion on experiences with military FMJ ammo.

I am not getting another person(s) involved privately in this conversation. This has gone to far. Like I said to begin with. Why dont you try it out on same weight game animals and come to your own conclusions. We are not at war and if you can hit a target you dont need 26 rounds in a gun. So that extra round argument for self defense or average day to day need is over.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I'm

I am not getting another person(s) involved privately in this conversation. This has gone to far. Like I said to begin with. Why dont you try it out on same weight game animals and come to your own conclusions. We are not at war and if you can hit a target you dont need 26 rounds in a gun. So that extra round argument for self defense or average day to day need is over.

It seems to me that you have on experience in shooting at humans. And most likely have never seen one shot. It’s much different then shooting game.
One of my coworkers has been in four shootings. He has shot three people. The three people he shot start shooting at him first and he returned fire and ended the fight with Speer Gold Dot JHP 9mm. The other shooting he was in he didn’t get off a round. As he pulled up in front of a house to check an alarm call, the burglar was coming out the front door with a flat screen TV. The burglar dropped the TV and put six rounds of 40 S&W into his windshield from 20 yds. The only thing that saved his life that day was the steering wheel that stopped two rounds.
But I have found that people that have never been in combat or a LEO, seem to know more about what guns and calibers work best.
Out of the ten evidence guns I proceeded in the last three days six of them had extended magazines. The bad guys are much better armed today then they were 15 years ago.
For those of you that have never seen combat, been a LEO, or been in a shooting, don’t think that I look down on you, because I don’t. I chose my way of life. You just sleep better at night. Putting ones self in harms way to protect others is not for everyone.

 

[BigBore45]

It seems to me that you have on experience in shooting at humans. And most likely have never seen one shot. It’s much different then shooting game.
One of my coworkers has been in four shootings. He has shot three people. The three people he shot start shooting at him first and he returned fire and ended the fight with Speer Gold Dot JHP. The other shooting he was in he didn’t get off a round. As he pulled up in front of a house to check an alarm call, the burglar was coming out the front door with a flat screen TV. The burglar dropped the TV and put six rounds of 40 S&W into his windshield from 20 yds. The only thing that saved his life that day was the steering wheel that stopped two rounds.
But I have found that people that have never been in combat or a LEO, seem to know more about what guns and calibers work best.
Out of the ten evidence guns I proceeded in the last three days six of them had extended magazines. The bad guys are much better armed today then they were 15 years ago.
For those of you that have never seen combat, been a LEO, or been in a shooting, don’t think that I look down on you, because I do. I chose my way of life. You just sleep better at night. Putting ones self in harms way to protect others is not for everyone.

I literally cannot understand the context in this. Please clarify what you are saying or calling me?

I reread this. Lol I dont sleep better at night because of Leo's. The military yes. But again I'm not at war when I choose my caliber and gun configuration.

I have friends that are Leo's. I shoot competition matches with Leo's. I dont count on them to help me sleep. Trust me I dont need them.
In the grand scheme of things they cannot do their job as it should be done. Not there fault but nevertheless.
I live in a small town. Every meth head, thieve and POS is busted and back out causing trouble the next week. Our jails are over full and they have no choice.

Just had a drug bust 4 houses down a few nights ago. A gun go off a month ago with some sorta drive by thing a block away. If anything Leo's and laws are hindering me from keeping myself safe.

The Leo's never get there in time why would I expect them too for me?

It might be different in a city but not here. Leo's dont do a thing but collect money from honest people with stupid victimless crime.

 

[danez71]

Still killing a mammal around 150-250 lbs is all the same.

That's just crazy talk.

 

[BigBore45]

You know I just did a thread on this subject in the deer hunting world as I used a 223 to take a deer.

The general consensus is. Shot placement. Also a bigger caliber does the job with less than ideal shot placement.

Why not use the same theory? Are 2 legged animals of some magical world? Or can we apply the same aspects.
Vitals, cns and flesh. A bigger bullet with more expansion capability and more energy would allow for a less that idea hit compared to its smaller weaker counterparts.

So unless you cannot hit your target with the first 8 rounds. I always go with the bigger and more powerful when it is in defense of my or family's life.

It's my opinion and to belittle and judge is a joke. Dont get so upset because I dont believe the hype.

 

[ar-newbie]

I don't worry about caliber wars at all. It's a nonsense argument to begin with.

Think of it like this, what caliber are you comfortable and accurate in shooting? Good shot placement means more than a tiny difference in diameter of a bullet.

Obviously, the physical size of the weapon plays a role if you are carrying concealed, but at the end of the day it really comes down to what are you most comfortable shooting, and able to get good shot placement with?

Me personally, I have always done quite well with a 45 acp. It's not the best for everyone though. The reason I like the 45 is the recoil impulse to me is more of a push rather than a slightly lower but sharper force from a 40 or a 9. Now the reason I feel it that way may have to do with my body mass, as I am on the larger side. That can vary. I notice people with a smaller stature tend to gravitate to the smaller calibers, as they have less mass to even out the recoil.

 

[danez71]

Why not use the same theory?

..... so you used 223 on a dear but saying bigger more powerful for defense..... while at the same time saying it's all the same, in theory.

 

[Odd Job]

So many arguments going on in one thread! Let me see if I can put this on track.

All things being equal (which they hardly ever are), if you have the same ammunition capacity limitations for three different calibre guns and you are capable of shooting all three to the same degree of proficiency and the selected ammunition will penetrate the same distance, then the bigger calibre is the one to choose. That's simply because you'll get a larger wound channel.

Because all things aren't equal, you have to select a gun and ammo combination that:

1) Is reliable.
2) You can shoot proficiently (for your intended mission). This means the gun can be carried, drawn and fired accurately in a short enough time to meet your needs.
3) Has the required minimum penetration and terminal performance for your intended use.
4) Supports the ammunition carrying strategy you prefer. This could be a smaller gun with multiple magazines, or a larger gun with one magazine, or a revolver with a speedloader etc).

There isn't one combination that suits all. It's about different needs. And those needs can be influenced by external factors such as cost, laws, restrictions and other impingements on your mission.

When I carried in South Africa I chose a Vektor CP1 because it was the gun I could afford, which suited my needs at the time. I carried it IWB and trained on the range, particularly in anti-carjacking scenarios. I had multiple magazines and I practiced drawing from under a shirt, from that IWB holster positioned between 2 and 3 o'clock position. The Vektor wasn't my first choice, I would rather have had an H&K P7M13 but it was way out of my price range, even second hand.

LEO, military and civilians have different mission requirements and limitations. There may be limitations even within one group (such as LEOs) simply because of a different jurisdiction. I don't think it is useful comparing these groups directly. The LEOs in Johannesburg weren't carrying the same combination as I was (for various reasons). Similarly, you may pick a combination that doesn't suit me, but it's good for you.

Let's have less argument about it and more friendly discussion instead.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I literally cannot understand the context in this. Please clarify what you are saying or calling me?

I reread this. Lol I dont sleep better at night because of Leo's. The military yes. But again I'm not at war when I choose my caliber and gun configuration.

I have friends that are Leo's. I shoot competition matches with Leo's. I dont count on them to help me sleep. Trust me I dont need them.
In the grand scheme of things they cannot do their job as it should be done. Not there fault but nevertheless.
I live in a small town. Every meth head, thieve and POS is busted and back out causing trouble the next week. Our jails are over full and they have no choice.

Just had a drug bust 4 houses down a few nights ago. A gun go off a month ago with some sorta drive by thing a block away. If anything Leo's and laws are hindering me from keeping myself safe.

The Leo's never get there in time why would I expect them too for me?

It might be different in a city but not here. Leo's dont do a thing but collect money from honest people with stupid victimless crime.

Sorry about that. I was tired and didn’t proofread before posting.
I have spent my adult life in uniform, military and law enforcement. This was a personal choice to live my life in the service of others. I do not look down on those that did not serve their country in the military or their community as a LEO. These jobs are not for everyone.
The comment about you sleeping better at night was not because someone is protecting you. It’s that you most likely sleep better then I do. Not being able too sleep good is just part of the price that some of us pay for the things we’ve done.
Just because you can hunt, target shoot, or even shoot with LEOs, it’s not the same as shooting at people that are shooting at you.
Just think if there were no LEOs. Criminals would do as they please and we would all sleep good at night.
Maybe my point was not clear, I do tend to ramble at times. But here it is. People that have not used fire arms in combat, law enforcement, or been in a real shooting, seem to think they know better then those that have.
I have carried 40 S&W and 9mm during my 18 years as a LEO. I carry a 9mm right now with Speer Gold Dot JHP. I’ve seen what this ammo does on the human body , it gets the job done.
Does it matter if you like 40 S&W better? Not really. You should carry what makes you feel safe.

 

[IdaD]

You know I just did a thread on this subject in the deer hunting world as I used a 223 to take a deer.

The general consensus is. Shot placement. Also a bigger caliber does the job with less than ideal shot placement.

Why not use the same theory? Are 2 legged animals of some magical world? Or can we apply the same aspects.
Vitals, cns and flesh. A bigger bullet with more expansion capability and more energy would allow for a less that idea hit compared to its smaller weaker counterparts.

In theory, yes, but I think your analogy fails in the real world. There's more variation in energy within a single rifle caliber depending on the ammo you choose than there is between 9, 40 and 45, all of which are comparatively weak. Let alone comparing a 223 to a more typical hunting round like a 308 or 30-06.

I don't think a person needs combat or LEO experience to have valid opinions on this subject, though. That's just silly.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I don't think a person needs combat or LEO experience to have valid opinions on this subject, though. That's just silly.

Everyone has an opinion, but not everyone has experience.

 

[BigBore45]

..... so you used 223 on a dear but saying bigger more powerful for defense..... while at the same time saying it's all the same, in theory.

The general consensus was bigger allowed for shot placement error. Which is what I'd expect in a defensive situation.