Which hand-held light/gun combo for low-light shooting?

[D.B. Cooper]

The local gun club is having a "low light" shoot in a few weeks. (Basically a USPSA type match...in the dark.) I signed up for the hand held light/pistol classification. What are my options as far as gun/light combo?

Gun: revolver that I'm very familiar with vs 9mm compact that I just bought and have only about 200 rounds through. I don't think I can juggle speedloaders, a 2D maglite, and a revolver at the same time. Sights on both are fiber-optic fronts with white (not tritium night sights) dots on the rear.

Light (handheld - I'm not going down the "weapon light" path. Especially on my revolver.)

I have a 2D maglite (not LED) with which I'm practicing at the moment. (I also have a Maglite XL50 LED I could use.) Should I stick with this, or go buy a sure-fire (or other brand) light?

Part of me just wants to go "old school" - shoot the revolver and use the 2D, but I doubt it will be bright enough? ( 2D incandescent = 27 lumens, XL50 =200 Lumens) Surefire sells a 600 lumen compact for about $80. How many lumens are enough lumens?

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[JTQ]

I'm not a "tactical" guy, just a homeowner with a bunch of flashlights. For indoor use, I haven't found a need for much more than about 100 - 200 lumen range. I have a Surefire G2 that started life as a 60 lumen incandescent that I upgraded to a 120 lumen LED head. With all these mega-lumen options, people forget just how big a leap a simple 60 lumen incandescent Surefire was above a Mag-Lite 2D, even with an LED. Relative to a Surefire, a Mag-Lite, while still a great light, is more like a map reading light than a searching for people light, in these days of super lumen options.

The only time I wished for more than 100 - 150 lumens was when I used to walk my dog at night in the school yard (5+ acres) across the street. I imagine a 600 lumen indoors, unless your walls are painted black, would give an awful lot of flash off the walls and make it difficult to use, though admittedly I've never used a light that powerful.

In addition to the Surefire G2, I also have a Streamlight Scorpion LED that has about 150 lumens.

https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/scorpion-led

 

[JTQ]

Let me add, I'm not a fan of multi-output lights, especially the tactical type. I want the light to come on at the lumen level I expect. I don't want to thumb tap-dance my way through a bunch of modes to find the light level I'm looking for. All my lights are single output level lights, though I do have different lights to accomplish different tasks.

 

[thomas15]

I have a handheld that puts out 950 lumens. It wasn't really all that expensive but having used it a few times for low light shooting I would not want anything less.

 

[herrwalther]

Since you are going to be shooting at handgun length distances, 500 lumen would be my suggestion for light brightness. And for budget reasons not over 1000 lumens. A tail mounted switch is far more versatile than a side switch on a flashlight. You don't want to be fumbling around the side of your flashlight looking for the on button in a non training or real life environment. Based on what you have now, the XL50 is a better choice than the 2D light. Some rare flashlights come with a ring to be used in the "Neck-Index" technique. Where you hold the light in the non dominant hand in between 2 fingers as you support your firing hand. That ring adds a huge difference, but the only light I know for sure that has one is the Walther MGL 1000X2 light. A very good light that has served me well, just a hard one to find on english websites.

 

[JTQ]

Some rare flashlights come with a ring to be used in the "Neck-Index" technique. Where you hold the light in the non dominant hand in between 2 fingers as you support your firing hand. That ring adds a huge difference, but the only light I know for sure that has one is the Walther MGL 1000X2 light.

Like the Surefire G2Z?

https://www.surefire.com/illumination/flashlights/g2zx-combatlight.html

 

[Chuck R.]

Since you are going to be shooting at handgun length distances, 500 lumen would be my suggestion for light brightness. And for budget reasons not over 1000 lumens. A tail mounted switch is far more versatile than a side switch on a flashlight. You don't want to be fumbling around the side of your flashlight looking for the on button in a non training or real life environment. Based on what you have now, the XL50 is a better choice than the 2D light. Some rare flashlights come with a ring to be used in the "Neck-Index" technique. Where you hold the light in the non dominant hand in between 2 fingers as you support your firing hand. That ring adds a huge difference, but the only light I know for sure that has one is the Walther MGL 1000X2 light. A very good light that has served me well, just a hard one to find on english websites.

That's not the neck index as I was taught it......That describes more of a Roger's SureFire or a Graham technique. The neck index:



Roger's SureFire (Graham method is similar):



I've shot a bunch of no-light stages and taken 4 or 5 low-light classes. IF I have my choice I prefer a weapon mounted light, it's almost cheating. For hand held methods I like the Graham, IF you know you're going to shoot. It's not the easiest position for me to get in and out of when moving the light away from the gun for shooting.

I've found a good compromise position to be the Harries:



Because it's reasonably stable and flexible, I can get in and out of it quickly to go to a neck index or FBI etc.

Lumens? MY HHs range from 2-500, my WMLs go up to 1000 for those that might see out doors use. Last low-light match we had 300 was about right as they judiciously intermixed non-threats in with the threats and the light had to be good enough to ID. I use SureFire lights almost exclusively and for this kind of stuff like the fullsize 2 CR132 battery lights as I can get a good grip on them. All of mine have momentary tail cap switches.

2 considerations you might want to look at:

I'm not a revolver guy when it comes to LL shooting, but I imagine the cylinder gap, might be a concern when it comes to light (hand) placement.

Work on your shot cadence, I have to slow down follow up shots as even the best of the HH techniques aren't as steady as my normal 2 hand grip. The gun recoils more.

Practice around barricades...bouncing your lightbeam off of one kinda sucks.

 

[FL-NC]

I recommend a Surefire 6P- which is something you should just have anyway. Without going into a lot of details about tactics and techniques, I will advise you of a simple arithmetic problem- you have 2 hands, and you will be using 1 to hold the handgun, another for the light. Now you are out of hands. Think about things like reloading (you will be doing more of this with a wheel gun), clearing malfunctions, opening doors, etc. Try and do these things with a light (any light) in your hand. You need a wrist lanyard on that light so you can "drop" it and retain it for later use. Putting it in a pocket, pouch, your mouth, etc. is just too much equipment juggling going on- fine motor skills just don't want to work in stressful conditions.I don't really know lumens- I just shine a light in the dark when I test it and decide if it's any good.

 

[herrwalther]

Like the Surefire G2Z?

Good to know. I am not a fan of Surefire so I don't keep up with their product lines. But yes, that extra ring is what I was talking about.

That's not the neck index as I was taught it......That describes more of a Roger's SureFire or a Graham technique. The neck index:

You are correct. I looked too quickly at a list of common light methods with handguns. I use a weapon light but also carry a handheld light. If my WML is not bright enough to illuminate what I am looking at, I naturally use something similar to the Surefire technique. As it gives me both hands to stabilize a firearm while still using a light.

 

[psyopspec]

I use a G2ZX by Surefire. The things I like about it are:
• Simplicity; binary on/off at a static level of illumination.
• Large button is easy to activate with a Surefire hold, but has never come on accidentally in a pocket.
• The rings make a Surefire grip easy. For me, this is the only technique that minimized recoil (more contact on the gun) while still allowing reloading close to how I'd normally do it.
• It's light, carries easily in a pocket most days (cargo in the summer, jacket/hoody in the winter).

IMO and for my hands/dexterity no other technique comes close. Shooting harries might as well be one-handed for me in terms of recoil. Neck index does nothing that the Surefire grip can't do better and more naturally by having the gun and light on the same plane/point. And as above, being able to reload or manipulate the pistol is important.

Other mileage can/will vary, usually in accordance with what and when they were taught and particularly if they haven't continued to try new methods.

 

[JTQ]

Good to know. I am not a fan of Surefire so I don't keep up with their product lines. But yes, that extra ring is what I was talking about.

I've got to admit I got a little chuckle out of this paired with your previous post recommending the Walther light. It just goes to show what different circles folks travel in.

Even without keeping up with their product line, and I don't either, Surefire practically invented the tactical light product category and have probably offered a version of the G2Z (I did have to look up the specific product name) for at least the past 20 years. You almost can't page through a gun magazine or just about anything involved with firearms/personal defense/tactical lights, and not run into a Surefire ad that probably features a picture of the G2Z.

Conversely, when you mentioned the Walther light, I actually said to myself, "Walther makes flashlights? Really?" I had to google it just to know what you were talking about.

It's not a knock on you, I just found it interesting you were able to come up with the Walther light right off the bat, but not aware of the Surefire product, while I didn't even know Walther made flashlights, let alone one like the Surefire G2Z.

 

[Old Dog]

Streamlight produces great lights at a more palatable price-point than the way overpriced Surefires (although I have a lot of Surefire lights and like them) ...

The Pro-Tac HL-2 is a nice tactical light with (IIRC) about 800 lumens, and quite a bit less expensive, though at least as good, as the comparable Surefire.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Streamlight produces great lights at a more palatable price-point than the way overpriced Surefires (although I have a lot of Surefire lights and like them) ...

The Pro-Tac HL-2 is a nice tactical light with (IIRC) about 800 lumens, and quite a bit less expensive, though at least as good, as the comparable Surefire.

Interesting. When I was working in aviation, Streamlight (the Stinger) was the predominant favorite by a large margin, but I never owned one because I just couldn't spend the money on one. I've always considered Streamlight as way overpriced, although they were good lights. They're sort of the Snap-on of the flashlight world, or so I thought at the time.

 

[Zerodefect]

King of all handhelds:
https://www.surefire.com/e2d-defender-flashlight.html

Mine was rated 600 lumens........but no, It's bright, but not that bright.

 

[herrwalther]

Even without keeping up with their product line, and I don't either, Surefire practically invented the tactical light product category and have probably offered a version of the G2Z (I did have to look up the specific product name) for at least the past 20 years. You almost can't page through a gun magazine or just about anything involved with firearms/personal defense/tactical lights, and not run into a Surefire ad that probably features a picture of the G2Z.

Conversely, when you mentioned the Walther light, I actually said to myself, "Walther makes flashlights? Really?" I had to google it just to know what you were talking about.

It's not a knock on you, I just found it interesting you were able to come up with the Walther light right off the bat, but not aware of the Surefire product, while I didn't even know Walther made flashlights, let alone one like the Surefire G2Z.

Surefire put a bad taste in my mouth years ago and it stuck. We also had Surefire weapon lights issued to us in the Army and the vast majority, including mine, broke under very little stress. By comparison the Novatac light that replaced my Surefire on my duty weapon, went overseas with me, and now sits on my personal AR at home, is much more durable. It is one tough as nails light, I cannot say that about the larger, slightly brighter, and way more expensive Surefire.

The Walther model came to mind quickly because I have the light. Was very useful for working in corrections. The extra grip ring is removable on the Walther light, which makes it slip in and out of a pocket easier.

Interesting. When I was working in aviation, Streamlight (the Stinger) was the predominant favorite by a large margin, but I never owned one because I just couldn't spend the money on one. I've always considered Streamlight as way overpriced, although they were good lights. They're sort of the Snap-on of the flashlight world, or so I thought at the time.

It may be worth taking another look at them. The Stinger and its various iterations are the popular duty light for police officers I worked with. Some officers I talked with don't carry a collapsible baton because the Stinger will do the same thing in a close fight. And it can easily break a car window for rescues. When I don't carry the aforementioned Walther light, a Streamlight Protac 2L rides in my pocket. $40 and I have had the light since 2013.

 

[ugaarguy]

How many lumens are enough lumens?

How far away will the targets be? You need to look at Candela (cd), not lumens. Lumens just tell you tell you total light output. Cd tells you intensity, and gives you a better comparison of how far one light will throw when compared to another.

It sounds like you're ready to invest in a new light. There are numerous options besides Mag, Surefire, and Streamlight. Are you open to buying a charger and a battery or two?

 

[Jesse H]

Get as many lumens as you can get. Also, not all lumens are created the same. Anybody that tells you X number of lumens is too much doesn't know what he's talking about.

I carry a handheld and weapon mounted lights on my pistols and rifles. They do not replace each other, but if you actually have to manipulate a weapon in the dark it's hard to beat a dedicated WML.

 

[ugaarguy]

Get as many lumens as you can get. Also, not all lumens are created the same. Anybody that tells you X number of lumens is too much doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yes, all lumens are the same. They're an SI unit of measure. They can be measured to see if a manufacturer is over or under rating their light. They're just not as easy to measure as something like inches or centimeters.

That out of the way, yes, you can have too much light, depending on the situation. Ultra-low modes for navigation and/or dark adjusted eyes are incredibly useful. Ultra high modes are useful things like ID'ing potential targets.

 

[6.8KT]

Does it have to be handheld?

 

[D.B. Cooper]

So many lights on the market, it's hard to choose. I'm going to set my budget at $80-100, less if possible. (At the end of the day, it's a flashlight.)

Seems like the high output (500+ lumens) are sort of big. I've watched some videos on the Olight MS20X, and it looks huge. (Not as huge as my 2D maglite.) I like most everything else about it, but it's not going to ride around in my pocket.

Which brings me to my next question: should I be looking for something that fits in a pocket or not? I'm buying a light for this low-light shooting match, but they only do that once per year. How do avoid buying an expensive light that sits in a pack all year?

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Does it have to be handheld?

For the match? I believe it does. (Well, they have a hand-held, and a weapon-mounted classification, but I'm not read do put a light on my gun.)

 

[D.B. Cooper]

How far away will the targets be?

I don't know, but definitely not more than 50 yards, because that's as long as the range is. (And I would have a pretty difficult time hitting 10" steel plates at 50 yards with either of my handguns...in the daytime.

Are you open to buying a charger and a battery or two?

I think so, but it depends. Depends on how much I use it. If it ends up in a pack all year, then not likely. When I worked in aviation I bought what was, to me at that time at least, an "expensive" flashlight (Pelican) for $65, but it used 3 C batteries. I used it every single day, but I HATED replacing the batteries every other week.

 

[6.8KT]

I'd just get something like this for $18.99
https://www.amazon.com/PeakPlus-Fla...+flashlight&qid=1548056041&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1
Takes AA or 18650.
The only downside I can see is potentially having to "cycle through the modes" every time you turn it on. Some are like that, some aren't.
I have a lot of these cheap lights and they're very good for the price.
The color temperature of the light might be a bit on the purple side, but who cares. Not "super bright" but good to 50 yards.

 

[ugaarguy]

So, the M20SX has been replaced by the M23. Those are both big reflector lights that will throw. The new M23 is 1020 lumens but it's rated at 47,500 candela. The Olight M2R can hit 1500 lumens, but it's only 10,880 candela. The M23's wide, deep reflector lets it throw much further. Also, lumens aren't linear. IIRC, you need a 50% increase in lumens to get a 25% increase in perceived brightness.

How do avoid buying an expensive light that sits in a pack all year?

I recently picked up an M2R. I like my little S1 Baton lights for everyday use, but I also missed the tail switch of lights like Surefires that I cut my teeth on. The M2R's tail switch always goes into turbo mode with momentary (soft press) and constant (deep press); or momentary turbo (soft press) and momentary strobe (deep press). It's very simple to switch between the two, but almost impossible to do it accidentally. The side switch is independent and gives you access to the all modes including the lower modes. It's as big as I want to carry everyday and it's about the same size as Surefire E2. It was $100, and that includes the 18650 battery and charging cable. I love it. The tail switch was little stiff at first and needed a couple days of playing with it to break in, but now it's great. I use the lower modes for walking my dog, and I can still blast into the woods on turbo with the tail switch if I hear a critter. The 1 lumen moonlight mode is amazing for those middle of the night trips to the restroom or to get a drink of water from the kitchen without turning on house lights and destroying dark adjusted vision.

I'd just get something like this for $18.99
https://www.amazon.com/PeakPlus-Fla...+flashlight&qid=1548056041&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1
Takes AA or 18650.
The only downside I can see is potentially having to "cycle through the modes" every time you turn it on. Some are like that, some aren't.
I have a lot of these cheap lights and they're very good for the price.
The color temperature of the light might be a bit on the purple side, but who cares. Not "super bright" but good to 50 yards.

No, not at all a good value. Cycling modes on a single switch rules it out. Zoom lights like that have crappy beam patterns, and the zoom mechanism eliminates any chance of serious water resistance. The 18650 and charger that come with it are an unknown quantity and probably a fire hazard. They don't even list the Lumens or candela. The Sofirn SP31 V2 for $30 from Amazon; plus an Xtar charger for $10 and a Samsung or LG 18650 for $6 from Illumn would be a much safer and more reliable bet.

 

[6.8KT]

No, not at all a good value. Cycling modes on a single switch rules it out. Zoom lights like that have crappy beam patterns, and the zoom mechanism eliminates any chance of serious water resistance. The 18650 and charger that come with it are an unknown quantity and probably a fire hazard. They don't even list the Lumens or candela. The Sofirn SP31 V2 for $30 from Amazon; plus an Xtar charger for $10 and a Samsung or LG 18650 for $6 from Illumn would be a much safer and more reliable bet.

No doubt that Sofirn looks like a better light. I was just keeping it cheap for him. And yeah, I'd be 'cautious' with its included battery and charger -- which just means to touch the battery every hour or so that it's charging to see it it's getting warm/hot.