Who carries an SAO with the hammer down

[Drgong]

Remember, you're betting that if you need your gun quickly you'll have the use of both hands. It's up to you, of course. But personally, I wouldn't count on that.

Indeed, if it wasn't for that no one would use Condition 1.

It is a personal choice, and I completely understand someone who has it in Condition 1, but I do not feel safe enough in condition 1 to carry a Hi Power (A 1911 is more suited for Condition 1 then the Hi Power is.) and i will train like the Israeli's to make the 2nd nature to put the bullet in the chamber. If I am only 1/8th as good as a Israeli Commando, I think I would do better then most. I do realize that condition 3 requires one to have both hands free.

I have no problem with someone doing Condition 1, I just don't understand why someone would do Condition 2.

 

[kcshooter]

So lets assume we have two pistols. One has the firing pin sitting one thousands of an inch from the primer.

The other has the firing pin one half inch from the primer.

We drop them both on the muzzle from the same distance. Will both firing pins hit the primer at the same velocity?

I understand your thinking here, but you are not accounting for the firing pin spring. If these two situations are using identical firing pin springs, it takes the same force on the spring to move it far enough to contact the primer. The starting position isn't relative, it still takes the same amount of force to overcome the resistance of the spring, and the force will be the same from each of these pins.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Drgong, you might want to consider some good, professional training. A class at some place like Gunsite (with which I have personal experience) or Thunder Ranch might broaden your perspective.

 

[Drgong]

Drgong, you might want to consider some good, professional training. A class at some place like Gunsite (with which I have personal experience) or Thunder Ranch might broaden your perspective.

In the sense that Condition 2 is better then I think, or Condition 3 is not good?

A Hi Power Just has a ambidextrous thumb safety, unlike a 1911, if I was carrying a 1911 Condition 1 would not worry me, but a simple bump can move the Thumb Safety from safe to live gun.

That is just me

 

[Frank Ettin]

In the sense that Condition 2 is better then I think, or Condition 3 is not good?...

In the sense of getting a better idea of what sort of performance may be necessary in real life. This may suggest to you that condition 3 will not be as effective as you think it can be. I personally don't know anyone who has gone through this sort of training and then opted for condition 3 carry.

BTW, Jeff Copper had the grip safety on his personal 1911 pinned, and he still carried in condition 1. I understand your concern about the thumb safety on the BHP; but if you're right handed, you might consider having the ambidextrous safety switch to a left side only one so you would have to worry about am exposed right side paddle. You could also look for a holster with a retention strap that would fit under the the cocked hammer.

Again, it's your choice to carry in condition 3, and condition 3 is usually considered an acceptable option. But it does put you behind the curve if you need your gun.

 

[M1911]

A Hi Power Just has a ambidextrous thumb safety, unlike a 1911, if I was carrying a 1911 Condition 1 would not worry me, but a simple bump can move the Thumb Safety from safe to live gun.

1) I've carried 1911s with an ambi safety. I never had the safety wiped down while in the holster.

2) You can get the ambi safety changed to a single side safety. Cylinder and Slide makes a single-side safety: https://shop.cylinder-slide.com/ccp....79.154&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=27&cat=&catstr=

3) Even if the safety does get wiped off while in the holster, so what? The gun is not going to discharge unless you pull the trigger and you can't pull the trigger while the gun is in the holster.

 

[Drgong]

How about this...

I am new to handguns (though not to rifles) and I will use Condition 3 till the time that after training that I feel confortable with Condition 1.

I will not use Condition 2.

Is that fair enough

 

[M1911]

That's fair enough. There are lots of good places to get training: LFI, Gunsite, Cumberland Tactics, etc.

 

[MythBuster]

Condition two is for someone who has no desire or need for condition one but wants a gun he can put into action quickly with one hand. It is easier to cock the hammer than to rack the slide.

There is NOTHING unsafe about condition two.

People have SAFELY carried their 1911's that way since 1911.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I personally know two people who had NDs with Condition 2. One was lucky, the other sustained a through and through gunshow wound of the leg.

 

[MythBuster]

Tell us how that happened.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Both cases occurred while cocking the hammer.

 

[MythBuster]

Only an idiot cocks a hammer while holding the trigger to the rear. That is the only way that could have happened.

 

[kcshooter]

I am new to handguns (though not to rifles) and I will use Condition 3 till the time that after training that I feel confortable with Condition 1.

Drgong, how about this, you carry with the chamber in condition 3, but the hammer in condition one. That way you have it cocked and locked, but on an empty chamber. If in a few months, you still have never had the hammer fall accidentally (on the empty chamber), would you consider possibly attempting at least occasional use of condition one until you are fully confident in it? Sound like a fair plan?

Condition two is for someone who has no desire or need for condition one but wants a gun he can put into action quickly with one hand. It is easier to cock the hammer than to rack the slide.

...said the guy right before he shot his foot.
Sounds like I'm just not "professional enough" to be comfortable doing this, I guess.
Also, if someone wants a gun he can put into action quickly with one hand, how does he not have a need for condition one??

There is NOTHING unsafe about condition two.

...except the action described in the preceeding paragraph.
If you think cocking a 1911 with one hand from condition two isn't able to result in an ND, you haven't been around 1911's much. And hopefully, you won't be around me much either.

 

[tipoc]

DRgong,

Seems to me that what you are suggesting may be right for you. But you also may consider this, train with the gun till you feel comfortable with it. Maybe take some classes. But consider that one of the more important things about carrying a handgun is that the person doing the carrying should feel that they are competent with the piece they are carrying. That they can rely on it and that they can quickly bring it into action. If you don't yet have that confidence with yourself and the 1911 than carry something else till you do, if you have that option. Now if you consider condition 3 can work for you, well use that and work on increasing your skills.

A good many believe condition 2 to be dangerous and foolish. Those that do should stay away from it.

tipoc

 

[M1911]

Condition two is for someone who has no desire or need for condition one but wants a gun he can put into action quickly with one hand. It is easier to cock the hammer than to rack the slide.

I'm sorry, but again, why? What advantage does condition 2 have?

Most 1911s these days come with beavertail safeties and commander style hammers. It is decidely NOT easy to "put into action quickly with one hand" if you have a beavertail safety and a commander style hammer. Furthermore, you have a weaker hold on the gun while cocking it with one hand that you do while lowering the safety. It is faster, easier, and more secure to put a condition 1 1911 into action quickly with one hand, than it is to do the same with condition 2.

If you have drawn your gun, it is faster and easier to put in holster-ready condition if you carry in condition 1 than in condition 2.

If you ever need your carry gun, you will need it REAL BAD, and you will need it RIGHT NOW! Lowering the safety is faster than cocking the hammer.

 

[Gordon Fink]

May I suggest that this debate is really about holsters?

These days, at least, open-top holsters are enormously popular. With modern, drop-safe handguns, such holsters pose reasonably little risk for negligent discharges. However, there are millions of m1911-style pistols out there that do not have firing-pin blocks.

Carrying a cocked single-action pistol without a firing-pin block in an open-top holster is inherently unsafe, in my opinion.

The solution to this problem is a retention strap that blocks the hammer. When the pistol is carried in such a holster, it will remain safe even if the thumb safety is somehow disengaged. Again, though, open-top holsters are vastly more popular.

If I had to carry my Argentine m1927 in an open-top holster, it would have to be with an empty chamber or with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

~G. Fink

 

[Drgong]

Well first of all I will not be carrying much due to my work being a no carry area (A courthouse, and not even emplyees can carry).

I will listen to the instructors in the Classes and consider it after that.

 

[kcshooter]

Carrying a cocked single-action pistol without a firing-pin block in an open-top holster is inherently unsafe, in my opinion.

The question as to wether or not a 1911 can go off when dropped from waist-height is pretty much proven to be a myth. As long as your firing pin spring is in good condition, there is not much risk of an AD from being dropped. If you use a Wolff extra power firing pin spring that comes along with their recoil springs, you have even less chance of this happening.

If you don't believe me, do a search. Several people have tested these and proven there is no legitimate reason to fear a ND from a 1911 falling from the holster. I'm pretty sure 1911Tuner even performed this test himself.

And once again, the gun doesn't know the difference between cocked and uncocked. If there is a round in the chamber, and inertia can overcome the firing pin spring, it will happen in either condition one or condition two.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Other things can cause the hammer to fall unintentionally besides a drop. The design is inherently unsafe as long as a spontaneous failure would allow the hammer to fall, however unlikely this may be. By contrast, double-action and safe-action pistols are inherently safe, because they will not fire without intervention by their users. This is my opinion based on the mechanics of these designs.

Plenty of folks disagree and continue to carry cocked single-action pistols in open-top holsters.

~G. Fink

 

[tipoc]

Gordon hits on the hub of the argument when he says...

The design is inherently unsafe as long as a spontaneous failure would allow the hammer to fall, however unlikely this may be. By contrast, double-action and safe-action pistols are inherently safe, because they will not fire without intervention by their users. This is my opinion based on the mechanics of these designs.

Safety comes from the shooter and cannot be built into a gun. It is a matter not of the gun or the gear but of the shooter. All guns are inherently unsafe. They are supposed to be. If mishandled they can kill or main. No mechanical safety can take the place of practice in working with your side arm and becoming familiar with it and how to handle it safely under all conditions. This is the heart of the matter. Those who advocate learning all three modes of carry (in a 1911 for example) and using them as needed, or not, but of knowing them and having confidence in using them, understand this. Those that use nothing but condition one because it is "safest" do not get this. The heart of the question comes down to this: Do you have more confidence in your own abilities or in the mechanical safeties built into the gun?

There is no disagreement from me that condition one is a safe way to carry and the quickest way to bring the gun into action. Where I disagree with some is that I see a place and time for condition 2 and 3 (as did Jeff Cooper by the way) and practice safe gun handling for guns in these conditions. Having studied and practiced them I do not fear them.

tipoc

 

[seeker_two]

I personally know two people who had NDs with Condition 2. One was lucky, the other sustained a through and through gunshow wound of the leg.

Both cases occurred while cocking the hammer.

Only an idiot cocks a hammer while holding the trigger to the rear. That is the only way that could have happened.

Unless there was a mechanical malfunction that caused the discharge......I'd like to hear the details of these ND's too....

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The design is inherently unsafe as long as a spontaneous failure would allow the hammer to fall, however unlikely this may be. ...Plenty of folks disagree and continue to carry cocked single-action pistols in open-top holsters.

First, I've never heard of the hammer of a cocked 1911, in good repair, in a holster with the trigger covered, spontaneously falling. Have you?

Second, I disagree regarding open top holsters and know plenty of well trained and gun savvy individuals who do as well. But if it bothers you, don't carry that way.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Plenty long enough

I've been kind of watching this thread, and the result is interesting. With all the participants, who keep saying the same thing over and OVER and OVER, almost everyone has been remarkably polite to each another. I'd congratulate everyone, except that's the way things are MEANT to be.

That being said, I notice that some members are becoming a bit irritable. Looks to me as if six pages is enough for a WIDE cross section of opinions. We'll close this one up and let someone else start up something similar in a month or two.

--------------CLOSED---------------

Johnny