Who does revolver "combat" training?

[9mmepiphany]

What I have seen in a mixed course was that the revolver couldn’t keep up and got left behind.

Last year, at the IDPA WA State match, a revolver shooter came in fourth out of 150 shooters...he normally shoots in USPSA competition.

In local IDPA competition, I've been pretty competitive against autoloaders when shooting my revolver...and I'm really not that good.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Last year, at the IDPA WA State match, a revolver shooter came in fourth out of 150 shooters...he normally shoots in USPSA competition.

In local IDPA competition, I've been pretty competitive against autoloaders when shooting my revolver...and I'm really not that good.

Sure, but I am talking about novice SD, not the best competitors. And as I have said before, in SD training (and I guess the real thing), you dump partially used mags in order to have the assurance of a full load of rounds in case you need that. With a 5 shot revolver you are dumping more than you shoot and need to be very proficient to make the process quick and smooth. Also you can catch the dropped mag and put it in you pocket. Catching the loose cartridges exiting a revolver is not so easy and besides, what are you going to do with them, reload a speed loader on the run? Changing a mag is just plain easier.

 

[Styx]

Sure, but I am talking about novice SD, not the best competitors. And as I have said before, in SD training (and I guess the real thing), you dump partially used mags in order to have the assurance of a full load of rounds in case you need that. With a 5 shot revolver you are dumping more than you shoot and need to be very proficient to make the process quick and smooth. Also you can catch the dropped mag and put it in you pocket. Catching the loose cartridges exiting a revolver is not so easy and besides, what are you going to do with them, reload a speed loader on the run? Changing a mag is just plain easier.

I think 9mmepiphany point is that a revolver shooter has the ability to be competitive whether they're a novice or not. As far as dropping loose rounds, don't many competition shooters and the like use moon clips? They seem like they'd solve that issue... I don't know about Rugers, but many Smiths are cut for them. It also isn't that expensive to have it machined in.

That's good to know 9mmepiphany. I'm sure it's safe to assume that all the other 146 competitors that he beat weren't all novices. I wish they took video... What revolver was he shooting?

 

[thomas15]

Last year, at the IDPA WA State match, a revolver shooter came in fourth out of 150 shooters...he normally shoots in USPSA competition.

That same individual came in 16th in "Main Match" at the 2018 World Speed Shoot with a score of 93.51, the next highest revolver was 106.98, and that by a very accomplished revolver shooter.

93.51 in an 8 stage Steel Challenge match in Optical Sight Revolver is, in a word, amazing. For that matter, anything under 100 is a fantastic day. To put this in perspective, my absolute best day, hand's down, was 130.39 and that score put a smile on my face that had to be surgically removed 4 weeks later. My goal for this year is to score in the low 120s. If I were to manage less than 120 in 2019, I will become insufferable to my fellow THR buds, fair warning.

The point being made here is a well practiced revolver shooter can smoke it and hang with the big boys.

 

[Styx]

Spend a lot of time shooting itty bitty groups, in double action, of course, and under no time constraints and using an official NRA-type bullseye target. You'd be doing this a lot, so in a perfect world you'd have a .22 revolver (e.g. S&W Model 617) to save money on ammo.

Just curious, do you think practicing with completely different gun/trigger (M617) and with less recoil will help with being mote accurate with a primary SD or competition revolver?

 

[thomas15]

As far as dropping loose rounds, don't many competition shooters and the like use moon clips? They seem like they'd solve that issue... I don't know about Rugers, but many Smiths are cut for them. It also isn't that expensive to have it machined in.

In IDPA, revolver shooters are limited to 6 shot revolvers for all practical purposes. Stock Revolver uses speed loaders and has a power factor of 105. Enhanced Revolver uses moon clips and has a power factor of 155.

What this means is revolver shooters that use a 6 shot S&W 686 cut for moons has to load close to .357 magnum loads to use moon clips. A shooter with a S&W 625 in 45 acp using moons and a 230g bullet has a nice soft shooting round which will cream the .357 shooter.

This is the situation I'm in. I have a 686 cut for moons but if I shoot IDPA (which I try to avoid) I have to use speed loaders or shoot an entire match with magnum loads. Either way, not good or even fun. ICORE allows me to shoot in Limited 6 (moons) or Classic (speed loaders), with the same gun, both have the same power factor 120.

Regardless of speed loaders or moon clips, in IDPA there is a penalty for dropping unfired rounds on the ground.

The big issue for revolver shooters is in USPSA there is only 1 revolver category and for that you really need an 8 shot revo with moons and iron sights. In Steel Challenge there are iron sight and optical sight divisions, it is possible to shoot a 6/7/8 shot revolver there but the more the better. In IDPA a 6 shot iron sight gun only and in ICORE there are divisions for just about anything you can take to the range.

 

[Styx]

In IDPA, revolver shooters are limited to 6 shot revolvers for all practical purposes. Stock Revolver uses speed loaders and has a power factor of 105. Enhanced Revolver uses moon clips and has a power factor of 155.

What this means is revolver shooters that use a 6 shot S&W 686 cut for moons has to load close to .357 magnum loads to use moon clips. A shooter with a S&W 625 in 45 acp using moons and a 230g bullet has a nice soft shooting round which will cream the .357 shooter.

This is the situation I'm in. I have a 686 cut for moons but if I shoot IDPA (which I try to avoid) I have to use speed loaders or shoot an entire match with magnum loads. Either way, not good or even fun. ICORE allows me to shoot in Limited 6 (moons) or Classic (speed loaders), with the same gun, both have the same power factor 120.

Regardless of speed loaders or moon clips, in IDPA there is a penalty for dropping unfired rounds on the ground.

I didn't know that. All the IDPA revolver shooters I seen on YouTube and forums were shooting 45acp... Now I know why...

 

[thomas15]

I didn't know that. All the IDPA revolver shooters I seen on YouTube and forums were shooting 45acp... Now I know why...

For IDPA revo a 625 is the way to go for sure. I don't have one although I would like to get one if a deal were to come my way. Still where I'm at in PA there are so many opportunities to shoot in competitions that I can literally shoot 3 matches a week year round and still avoid IDPA all together. I think I shot in 50+ matches in 2018. I just shoot enough IDPA to keep the wheels greased.

 

[rpenmanparker]

All good information and I appreciate knowing it. My point to the OP is he MAY be able to shoot a single action semi-auto better and faster than a revolver. I certainly can. Why not find out?

 

[MrBorland]

Just curious, do you think practicing with completely different gun/trigger (M617) and with less recoil will help with being mote accurate with a primary SD or competition revolver?

Absolutely. The first goal is to establish strong fundamentals. That's sight picture, trigger control and lots of quality practice*.

Shootin's shootin', and without a strong foundation, you'll struggle in everything you do. Conversely, if your fundamentals are strong, the shooting world's your oyster. When I started competing, I was already able to shoot 25 yard double action cloverleafs, and that early focus on the fundamentals has paid dividends many times over.

For most, a good .22 in the same platform makes that practice cheaper. A 617 is an excellent understudy, but you'd still need to practice relevant drills with your primary revolver. I'd take my 686 and 617 to every practice session, and I put a lot of rounds through both.

For IDPA revo a 625 is the way to go for sure

Depends, IMO. I shoot an L-frame better than an N-frame, so I opted for a speedloader-fed 686. And we need to keep in mind that while some gear can handicap you, it's really the shooter that's fast or slow. In USPSA, where the round counts are higher, and reloads more numerous, a speedloader-fed gun is definitely a handicap, but in IDPA, the difference isn't that big, so between moonclipped- and speedloader-equipped shooters, the better shooter will generally win.



* I came to shooting late in life, but when the bug bit, it bit hard. I spent the first 1 - 1.5 years exclusively shooting .22LR out of a CZ 452 rifle and my 617. Nothing but sight picture and trigger control. Pretty boring stuff, but I was fortunate to be too naive to know that . Anyhow, I kept all my brass, and at one point dumped it all into a box and weighed it. IIRC, I estimated there are about 35,000 cases in that box. In retrospect, I was the wisest 35,000 rounds I've ever shot.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

How about a class from Ayoob.

I'm pretty sure he still teaches at least once a year at the Firearms Academy of Seattle (FAS). The owner of FAS, Marty Hayes, is a pretty fair revolver shot and a pretty good instructor also.

That would pretty awesome. I did't know he was still active. I didn't see his name in anything I had found.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I too hate the 1911. I have a few. I love the triggers, but just think the gun is highly over rated. Not necessarily just the grip safety either. I'd take nearly any da/sa and some striker fired guns over one to use. They are a classic and everyone should have a few though.

If your missing a ten inch target at 25 yards then any reputable instructor will be able to help with that. Especially if you are doing it after you slow down. As I said before, i get out shot by competitors every time, I'm not claiming to be great or even good compared to those guys. But with any of my guns, even my duty guns and concealed carry gun i wont miss that size at 25 yards unless I'm really flying, and certainly not 3 or 4 times. Again not trying to be mean, but that is a fundamental issue. People exaggerate their ability a lot online, no doubt. But with any sight alignment and trigger control 10 inches at 25 yards is expected. I'd look into any quality handgun class and you will find improvement. I mentioned lentz above. He is a revolver competitor. Can you hit 10 inches at 25 reliably when not under stress from competition?

Dryfire to me wasn't terribly helpful. After getting familiar with your trigger I don't feel it adds anything after that. Others swear by it, and I wish it worked for me, it would have been far cheaper. If your jerking the trigger, and you may well be, it might help. If your flinching, not aligning sights, or any other fundamental I doubt it helps. It will give you a better trigger pull though. Certainly won't hurt your shooting. If you set up and trust your gun, when you miss you don't change your point of aim. (Unless shooting way off which isn't the case) You regain your sight picture and go again. If your circling your target to get a hit after missing, you don't trust your gun.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That would pretty awesome. I did't know he was still active. I didn't see his name in anything I had found.

I think he's teaching a class at FAS in August. I happened to notice it when signing up for the WA IDPA State match, but didn't pay it much attention.

I remember him teaching a class in town last year

 

[9mmepiphany]

The first goal is to establish strong fundamentals. That's sight picture, trigger control and lots of quality practice*.

Shootin's shootin', and without a strong foundation, you'll struggle in everything you do.

The above can't ever be stressed enough

The good thing is that getting instruction in the fundamentals is relatively easy and inexpensive. Once you have learned the correct techniques, Dry Fire is your friend...again easy and inexpensive; all you have to do, to be safe, is remove all the ammo from that room.

When learning fundamentals, you only need to live fire to verify that your practice

 

[D.B. Cooper]

How about a class from Ayoob.

I'm pretty sure he still teaches at least once a year at the Firearms Academy of Seattle (FAS). The owner of FAS, Marty Hayes, is a pretty fair revolver shot and a pretty good instructor also.

Yep. So I checked those guys out. Unfortunately, they require completion of some of their other basic courses, for which I feel I have no real need, nor do I have time to take those courses as I would be traveling from out of state, before you can sign up for the guest instructor (e.g. Ayoob) courses. But it looks like a pretty cool place.

 

[labnoti]

You can register for the MAG 40 on the Massadayoobgroup website instead. The only prerequisite is knowledge of basic firearm safety.

https://massadayoobgroup.com

here's the direct link to the July class in Onalaska: https://massadayoobgroup.com/event/mag40-onalaska-wa/

The caveat is I cannot confirm Massad is teaching it personally. The only classes that massadayoobgroup claims are taught by him personally are the Deadly Force Instructor classes. So you might want to confirm with massadayoobgroup who the instructor will be for that July class. Also, my understanding of MAG40 is that 50% of it (2 days of the 4) are spent on legal-issues. If you just want to do the 2-days of live-fire (MAG20 Live Fire), it is usually the first two-days of a MAG40 class, but on the website they're not offering to break the MAG40 in July into two MAG20 classes. But call them and see. You might be able to do the two days and spend half as much.

 

[9mmepiphany]

they require completion of some of their other basic courses, for which I feel I have no real need

You might consider rethinking the above when you earlier posted:

I'm still missing too much
...after having missed it x number of times.
...Slowing down doesn't seem to help my hit ratio, either.
...A 10" plate at 25 yrds will often require 4-5 rounds or more.
...I can't tell where my rounds are going, so I often am relegated to the point of essentially firing blind in a circular pattern hoping to get a hit.
...I noticed things like when the gun goes click, I've dropped it low and to the left
...A lot of my rounds hit low or to the right.
... but the all ended up in the bottom right quadrant of the plate.

 

[Buzznrose]

DB,

What is this obsession with revolvers? They are great guns no doubt, but your reality should be your guide, and from your own posts, that is:

1. You don’t improve when you slow down

2. It takes 4-5 shots to hit a 10” plate at 25 yards.

You want training to shoot better. Good on ya, but how much effort will you put out for what gain?

Bro, you need to think hard on this firearm choice. Personally, I’m about at your level with a 4” .38 as well, maybe worse, and it will take me all 6 rounds to hit that plate, which is why I shoot a gun I can hit it 6 out of 6 times. I like wheel guns a lot, but I simply don’t shoot them well. But give me a Glock, or a 1911, or a Beretta, or a Sig, even a pocket 380 or 9MM, and I’m popping soda cans and clay pigeons at 20 yards consistently.

Stop hating the auto loader! You can still shoot revolvers for enjoyment if you want, but dang....stop the hate and find a gun you can use more effectively. Your beloved wheelie won’t get jealous of your semi mistress...

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You might consider rethinking the above when you earlier posted:

Touché.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Regardless of the chosen platform. Slow fire misses at 25 yards on a 10 inch target puts you firmly in the beginner to mediocre class by any instructors definition. I'm not trying to be an a-hole but if you fly to another state for training they are going to tell you the same. Then they will Id the problems and hopefully fix them. No one here is trying to beat you up on it. Just friendly advice.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Regardless of the chosen platform. Slow fire misses at 25 yards on a 10 inch target puts you firmly in the beginner to mediocre class by any instructors definition. I'm not trying to be an a-hole but if you fly to another state for training they are going to tell you the same. Then they will Id the problems and hopefully fix them. No one here is trying to beat you up on it. Just friendly advice.

I've got pretty thick skin. I wasn't offended by anyone.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

DB,

What is this obsession with revolvers?

For these club level USPSA matches...there is no need for my "obsession with revolvers." I could easily change guns.

But this began (and I've explained this in another discussion a month or two back) as me just practicing with my bear gun. And for that purpose, the smart money is on a big bore revolver. I started competing with the revolver just to get better at it, and then started liking the competition for its own sake.

All that said, if I'm still in the mediocre category with my revolver, and the need to use a revolver still exists (and that need will always exist as I have no plan to ever leave Alaska and no plan to abandon the woods..and the bears probably feel the same way) then the need to improve still exists.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Not sure about all the talk about semi autos though. If I'm grabbing a hunting gun it's almost always a revolver. I get just wanting to improve with the gun your carrying. Nothing wrong there in my book

 

[thomas15]

Bro, you need to think hard on this firearm choice. Personally, I’m about at your level with a 4” .38 as well, maybe worse, and it will take me all 6 rounds to hit that plate, which is why I shoot a gun I can hit it 6 out of 6 times. I like wheel guns a lot, but I simply don’t shoot them well. But give me a Glock, or a 1911, or a Beretta, or a Sig, even a pocket 380 or 9MM, and I’m popping soda cans and clay pigeons at 20 yards consistently.

It is true that some guns are a bit easier to shoot than others. Still, in the grand scheme of things just hitting a 10" plate at 25 yards slow fire is not what I would call fantastic shooting. Not trying to be a jerk but it is reasonable to say a decent shooter should be able to put 8 or 10 rounds roughly in the center of that plate rapid fire with few or no misses most of the time. At the least the shooter should not be worried about misses.

This thread is not about me but the 3rd time I shot a revolver was in a static steel match, this was April 2015. 5 steel targets per string roughly 10-12" at 20-25 yards with a stop plate, timed, 5 strings per stage, toss out the worse string, 5 stages for the match, score is time plus penalties which are 3 seconds for misses that are not made up before hitting the stop plate. A total of 100 plates out of 125 count for the score. My score in that match was 390 which I have calculated to mean that it took me about 4 seconds per target, 3-4 shots to hit each target on average, I consumed roughly 400 rounds that day. It was a humbling and humiliating experience but it also prodded me into action.

I would shoot a similar course today with a final score of about 80 to 95 somewhere in that neighborhood maybe a little better and use up about 140 rounds of ammo. It has helped that I use an 8 shot revolver as opposed to the 6 shot revolver I used in 2015. But I give the bulk of the credit for improvement to dry fire practice. I have refined my technique and improved things that I do and the way I do them but I very often beat production guys shooting Glocks and so forth. Another idea is that I try to watch shooters and incorporate what they do that I think is good into my shooting.

My whole point being is that while some guns can offer limiting factors or advantages it is practice that makes a good marksman. I suspect that a lot of the problems that D.B is having has to do with getting a good sight picture. If I'm correct then it would be a huge waste of time and money to take an intensive class in lieu of getting some local help to work on the basics like grip, trigger control and sight picture. I would also suggest doing dry fire and live fire drills. There are several books available that have practice drills and how to do them. The one I use is by Steve Anderson but there are others.

This is not a recommendation as I leave that to others here but for basics of handling the gun I really like this little book which is not really geared towards competition just general marksmanship The Perfect Pistol Shot by Albert League
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1610045718/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Steve Anderson drill book titled Refinement and Repetition Dry Fire Drills for Dramatic Improvement which is available at Brian Enos Store
https://brianenos.com/shop/shopshoprefinement-repetition/

Also a shot timer with par feature is useful there might be an app for your phone that will work. Also buy or make reduced sized dry fire targets.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I have a shot timer, but I'm not using it enough, in large part because I'm not dry firing.