Why are reloading manuals so conservative?
- Thread starter scythefwd
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Perhaps there is a nuance not yet revealed. The standard deviation and the mathematics mentioned above IS the conservative approach built into the system.
Lawyers are too smart just to lower data. If someone suffers a loss and sues the publisher, ultimately the lawyer may be the liable party for telling his client to lower the data when the lawyer clearly has no expertise concerning the reloading of ammunition. Lawyers are too smart to put themselves in that position. [For instance, H110/W296 is actually dangerous when loaded too light. If the lawyer advises the lowering of H110 data without knowing the dangers, the lawyer may be found culpable of exposing danger to the unsuspecting public.]
Instead, the lawyer's advice is to place the client in the most defendable interposition (go look up that word). If the publisher follows industry standards and does what every other publisher does, he becomes defendable. That is the origin of the "Two Standard Deviation" rule. Two standard deviations has become the industry standard, and thus is automatically the Standard of Care metric needed by the lawyer to mount a defense. Look up the phrase Standard of Care and you understand more about how an industry defends itself in mediation, arbitration, and litigation. And how a plaintiff's lawyer will build a case against a member of industry who did not follow the Standard of Care.
Thus, industry "conservatism" is found in the Two Standard Deviation rule. They could use a one-standard-deviation principle, or a simple mean, or a fixed coefficient, or some other means and method for determing max load. But those would not be defendable under the Standard of Care.
Lawyers are too smart just to lower data. If someone suffers a loss and sues the publisher, ultimately the lawyer may be the liable party for telling his client to lower the data when the lawyer clearly has no expertise concerning the reloading of ammunition. Lawyers are too smart to put themselves in that position. [For instance, H110/W296 is actually dangerous when loaded too light. If the lawyer advises the lowering of H110 data without knowing the dangers, the lawyer may be found culpable of exposing danger to the unsuspecting public.]
Instead, the lawyer's advice is to place the client in the most defendable interposition (go look up that word). If the publisher follows industry standards and does what every other publisher does, he becomes defendable. That is the origin of the "Two Standard Deviation" rule. Two standard deviations has become the industry standard, and thus is automatically the Standard of Care metric needed by the lawyer to mount a defense. Look up the phrase Standard of Care and you understand more about how an industry defends itself in mediation, arbitration, and litigation. And how a plaintiff's lawyer will build a case against a member of industry who did not follow the Standard of Care.
Thus, industry "conservatism" is found in the Two Standard Deviation rule. They could use a one-standard-deviation principle, or a simple mean, or a fixed coefficient, or some other means and method for determing max load. But those would not be defendable under the Standard of Care.
I think another reason for being conservative in manuals is probably more general purpose. The manuals are written for a broad audience with a wide variety of experience levels and whose equipment will have varying levels of precision.
People on this board use everything from Lee loaders, dippers, to progressive machines, and precision scales that cost hundreds of dollars. Quality of firearms used with these loads will also vary from poor to outstanding.
From a responsibility aspect this necessitates being more conservative.
The purpose of the manual is to give all of these audiences loads that will perform successfully.
Those reloaders with more experience can continue to develop loads as they need to.
For my purposes, I have never needed to go beyond anything in the manuals I use. Others will have different desires or requirements.
People on this board use everything from Lee loaders, dippers, to progressive machines, and precision scales that cost hundreds of dollars. Quality of firearms used with these loads will also vary from poor to outstanding.
From a responsibility aspect this necessitates being more conservative.
The purpose of the manual is to give all of these audiences loads that will perform successfully.
Those reloaders with more experience can continue to develop loads as they need to.
For my purposes, I have never needed to go beyond anything in the manuals I use. Others will have different desires or requirements.
I may swim in the edge of uncharted waters on the rare occasion, I just don't recommend it.
The manuals are trying to keep us safe. There are so many variables out there. No two guns are exactly the same. No two power lots are exactly the same. No two scale operators are exactly the same. Some tests are done with real guns, & some use pressure barrels.
You may go over data ABC in gun A and be fine, but go over data XYZ in gun B and run into serious trouble.
There is data out there that can be exceeded a hair, and there is data out there where it would be dangerous to do so.
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Universal proved a little "spiky" in 400 Corbon. In defense of Universal I did make too much of a jump with it. You know, like you aren't supposed to. Argh....
How much pressure? Too dang much. I do know how much velocity. 3 shots... ES = 3 and SD = 1. Avg FPS =
Close to blowing a primer. Sloppy firing pin/firing pin hole fit? Maybe, but still not good.
Attachments
Everyone that questions the manuals load limits, and why data varies from book to book, should get a copy of A-Squares "Any Shot You Want" http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=524043 Then read the sections titled
"pressure Measurement and Interpretation"
"Effects of Change in Temprature"
"Effect of Change in Components"
"Difference from Lot to Lot"
This is all their report on what was found in their lab during the making of the manual and IMO is a "must read". Why other books don`t give similar info is anyones guess....
I will say you`ll have a whole new outlook on pressure and load variations once you are done.
"pressure Measurement and Interpretation"
"Effects of Change in Temprature"
"Effect of Change in Components"
"Difference from Lot to Lot"
This is all their report on what was found in their lab during the making of the manual and IMO is a "must read". Why other books don`t give similar info is anyones guess....
I will say you`ll have a whole new outlook on pressure and load variations once you are done.
TEDDY
Member
loads
in reading posts in this and other forums there are many who ask how high can I load X cal.they want screamers.and then they wonder why the gun blew.I started many yrs before you were born.and I had nothing to go by.my first loading was 8 mm WW1 mauser.30/06 brass driven into chamber with hammer.cut off with hacksaw.what length?who knows. filled with bulk shot gun and lead bullet cast in plaster of paris mold.using 30/40 krag R nose.had to hammer bolt open.the bullet melted and I had a shotgun.the lord protects fools and children.I found a lyman book and used that from then on.
in reading posts in this and other forums there are many who ask how high can I load X cal.they want screamers.and then they wonder why the gun blew.I started many yrs before you were born.and I had nothing to go by.my first loading was 8 mm WW1 mauser.30/06 brass driven into chamber with hammer.cut off with hacksaw.what length?who knows. filled with bulk shot gun and lead bullet cast in plaster of paris mold.using 30/40 krag R nose.had to hammer bolt open.the bullet melted and I had a shotgun.the lord protects fools and children.I found a lyman book and used that from then on.
Great story, Teddy!!! I love it.
While still in high school, I tore the heads off a few 44 Rem Mag brass until I went back to the book and learned more about the difference between fast powder and slow powder. I only had one book available then: Shooter's Bible Reloading Guide. The info in it saved my bacon. I cast bullets in an old brass bullet mold from the 1800's (made for cap-n-ball revolver). I lubed the single groove with a 50/50 mix of parafin and motor oil because that's what Shooter's Bible recommended. Seems like a long, long time ago.
While still in high school, I tore the heads off a few 44 Rem Mag brass until I went back to the book and learned more about the difference between fast powder and slow powder. I only had one book available then: Shooter's Bible Reloading Guide. The info in it saved my bacon. I cast bullets in an old brass bullet mold from the 1800's (made for cap-n-ball revolver). I lubed the single groove with a 50/50 mix of parafin and motor oil because that's what Shooter's Bible recommended. Seems like a long, long time ago.
Maj Dad
Member
We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us
As a young hot-shot reloader, I used max load data not as a number to be approached cautiously, but as the upper limit in the range of acceptable loads. It resulted in my having to beat open the bolt on my custom Mauser 308 with a 2x4 because I was using military brass instead of commercial . It was one of the first "aha! s" of my reloading career, and has evolved into a true understanding of why each and every load manual, and experienced reloader, will state over and over: WORK UP LOADS IN YOUR GUN! Start low, etc etc etc. Lawyers are a player, but so are we...
Too soon old, too late smart.
As a young hot-shot reloader, I used max load data not as a number to be approached cautiously, but as the upper limit in the range of acceptable loads. It resulted in my having to beat open the bolt on my custom Mauser 308 with a 2x4 because I was using military brass instead of commercial
. It was one of the first "aha! s" of my reloading career, and has evolved into a true understanding of why each and every load manual, and experienced reloader, will state over and over: WORK UP LOADS IN YOUR GUN! Start low, etc etc etc. Lawyers are a player, but so are we...Too soon old, too late smart.
45crittergitter
Member
They aren't conservative. You are liberal.
Cosmoline
Member
Because when you pay $100 for a small box of A-Squares you are prepared to invest some time reading up on them.
qajaq59
Member
I'm not altogether sure that they are really. They have huge labs and all kinds of engineers figuring it out, and I have a loading press and a scale. Somehow I think they might know more about it then I do. And at least if they are wrong. it's on the side of my not blowing up a rifle.
twice barrel
Member
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- Oct 21, 2009
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How much freebore in your barrel? Did you load max charges with nearly flat primers in January and now going after prairie dogs in July?
As pointed out already - you need to be savvy enough to recognize signs of pressure in your own gun. What if you work up loads with a batch of hard primers only to make another batch with soft primers?
Why push it?
TB
As pointed out already - you need to be savvy enough to recognize signs of pressure in your own gun. What if you work up loads with a batch of hard primers only to make another batch with soft primers?
Why push it?
TB
Remo-99
Member
I recently seen data from a reputable source (from a major powder company) and it showed max data for pushing a 55gr bullet at +4,000fps from a 17 remington.
Just a typo I'm sure, but say it was powder weight or type that was way off in error, and being used by a new reloader?
Sure pays to cross check data with after data from different sources.
qajaq59
Member
That a chunk of advice that I hope every Newbie reads and follows!!!
Maybe some do, but you would have gotten a kick from seeing the Accurate Arms "lab" from the the early 1990's. Prior to my job offer from them, I toured the "lab", part of which was an older single wide trailer filled with dies and Lee Turret/single stage presses. The actual testing area as I recall had just gotten new piezo test equipment, with older test barrels stacked to one side. I found the packaging area the coolest, where in a metal shed a few ladies with scoops and scales were hand filling bottles from big imported cardboard cylinders.
In no way am I saying anything negative here, just that if anyone thinks these labs are filled with white coat workers in pressure regulated clean rooms carrying out their work, well, certainly not in my experience. Much of it is tedious, low tech, but very concise and methodical.
USSR
Member
Quote:
Why are reloading manuals so conservative?
Try calling Sierra sometime, and ask them what the pressure is on one of their "Max" loads. They will tell you they don't know, they just decided to stop there. So much for huge labs and engineers.
Yep.
Don
Why are reloading manuals so conservative?
Try calling Sierra sometime, and ask them what the pressure is on one of their "Max" loads. They will tell you they don't know, they just decided to stop there. So much for huge labs and engineers.
Yep.
Don
I have used Speer #10 and Sierra #2 for years.I work up the loads and stop before max. The key is working up the load. If I am not mistaken, the Speer
#11 or 12 used a max load for 357 mag and Olin 296 below what the minimum charge was per Olin. Byron
#11 or 12 used a max load for 357 mag and Olin 296 below what the minimum charge was per Olin. Byron
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