Why are slow moving heavy bullets considered to be effective?

[ThomasT]

Everybody can share anecdotes and stories. That doesn’t make them science.

I agree with that. I like reading these types of threads but don't get too worked up about them. I will continue to use my 38 and 357 revolvers. I have autos but just like the wheel guns better. I don't have any great faith in any handgun rounds. They all work and at times they all fail. As stated several times a well placed bullet is the ticket to success. And I try like crazy to avoid gunfights. There is just no percentage in them.

 

[illinoisburt]

Sometimes understanding how modern calibers developed can help answer the original question. Velocity was essentially capped for a long time by black powder and gun metulargy. Therefore to achieve a more powerful and lethal arm the only option was to go with larger and heavier projectiles. Guns were developed which worked well for the intended targets. These included venerable cartridges like the 45/70 and 45 colt. It was only later with advanced powders and steel that higher velocities could be realized and bullet calibers and weights were reduced.

So the question is not when slow and heavy became effective. They have worked since they were developed more than a century ago, and still work today. Instead the question can be asked has fast and light become consistently more effective than our previous standard workhorses.

 

[harrygunner]

Haven't seen postings of equations relevant to the problem, which is inelastic collisions.

Some insight could come from adapting "particle in cell" computer simulation techniques to properly model simultaneous conservation of both momentum and energy. I suspect there's little interest in doing such a thing since placement does dominate.

When it comes to momentum and energy, gun forum posts typically like to ignore one or the other. Can't get true insight that way. But, it's understandable since bullets into flesh is a complex non-linear process.

As typically happens in non-linear dynamics, solutions fall into different "domains" depending on the initial conditions. In that sense, pistols and rifles are the "same", but due to different initial bullet momentum and energy, collision dynamics look different.

Simply, if a bullet does not have enough energy to significantly displace tissue in directions transverse to the direction of bullet travel, it's better to lean toward momentum with a heavy, slow bullet. A slow bullet does not demand tissue in the target to displace quickly, decreasing the effective mass the bullet is interacting with.

 

[ScrapMetalSlug]

It is well documented, getting hit with bullets of any type has an immediate negative affect on anyone’s health. Big and slow, or small and fast, or any combination in between will never give you an absolute answer 100% of the time.

There will always be stories of people surviving something that cannot be explained by the numbers. Somehow people survive lightning strikes and parachutes not opening too. No matter what you are playing the odds, and any caliber which can cause a disabling of the cns system or a large enough drop in blood pressure will get the job done.

Myself, I like rounds with a proven track record whether 40, 45 ACP, 30-06, or even .223. I do not want to test bullet theories when everything is on the line. I know they all have a good chance of doing what I need them to do if I do my part. It is unrealistic to base your caliber decisions on the one time one guy (or elk or whatever) took 30 hits to the vitals to go down.

If self defense and hunting decisions were made on that one story we heard one time with the most extraordinary circumstances, we’d all be using a 458 Lott with 500 grain solids at 1200 ft/s for everything.

 

[illinoisburt]

It is unrealistic to base your caliber decisions on the one time one guy (or elk or whatever) took 30 hits to the vitals to go down.

If self defense and hunting decisions were made on that one story we heard one time with the most extraordinary circumstances, we’d all be using a 458 Lott with 500 grain solids at 1200 ft/s for everything.

And this right here is exactly where so many misconceptions are born. Someone knows somebody, or heard such and such, or themselves "made a great shot" with poor results and now a particular cartridge is no good.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I do know slow moving heavy bullets (like .30-40 Krag 200 gr at 1950 fps) are preferred for shooting carp on the Clinch River in Virginia.
The slow moving heavy bullets penetrate deeper in water. At 2700 fps .30-06 hits water like it has hit a brick wall and fails to penetrate deeply.

Mythbusters had a test of the WWII advice that, if you are in water and are subject to a strafing attack, you are safe if you dive 3 or 4 feet below the surface. High velocity bullets they tested up to and including .50 BMG made big splashes but did not reach targets a few feet underwater. The old .58 cal Civil War musket, 9mm pistol, 12 ga slug rounds penetrated water better than modern military rifle/machinegun caliber rounds. After watching that episode I realized why in the 1950s movie Sharkfighters about WWII tests of shark repellants the guards on the boats carried M1 Carbines (.30 Carbine 1900 fps) rather M1 Garands (.30-06 2700 fps).

Slow bullet has more benefit than good penetration in water. When I load for my Webley for the black powder cartridge match and use a load that is supposed to give about 600 fps, observors say they can see the bullets flying to the target, good for a laugh. All I get to see is a cloud of white smoke.

 

[Hummer70]

Bigbore 44 mentioned 45 ACP ammo called PDX1 was real effective and I now know why. I checked the factory website and it is listed and clearing the muzzle at 950 FPS!!!!! That would sure do it only problem is I can't find it anywhere around Augusta, Ga or Aiken, SC. Comes in 20 round boxes so about a buck a round so I figure I will get a box and carry a chambered round in all three of my Glocks to open any negotiations I feel a need to participate in.

I have a CATSNEEZE 45 ACP Rifle with 26" Douglas barrel zeroed for 100 yards and with good match ammo it will print in about 5" at 100 yards. 230 grm FMJ MILSPEC ammo prints about 12+ inches which is not surprising as acceptance accuracy from machine rest at 50 yards is 7". Acceptance on 230 FMJ Match is 3.5" at 50 yards.

I tested some 185 gr. Fed Match once and got 3" at 100 yards.

 

[BigBore44]

I have a CATSNEEZE 45 ACP Rifle with 26" Douglas barrel zeroed for 100 yards and with good match ammo it will print in about 5" at 100 yards. 230 grm FMJ MILSPEC ammo prints about 12+ inches which is not surprising as acceptance accuracy from machine rest at 50 yards is 7". Acceptance on 230 FMJ Match is 3.5" at 50 yards.

A 45ACP with a 26” barrel? Don’t suppose you have pics do you? I personally think you might have about 6” to much barrel.

 

[hdwhit]

Hummer70 wrote:
That Sergeant should have been put in for Congressional Medal of Honor !

He was recommended.

It was not approved.

The Sergeant in this case was a native Filipino and had been a member of the Philippine Scouts prior to World War II. When the Philippines was given independence, the Scouts were offered the ability to remain in the United States Army rather than transferring to the new Philippine Army. My father never found out the reason for the rejection, but to this day wonders whether having been a Philippine Scout "convert" somehow made him ineligible. I'm not suggesting racism or anything like that, but rather the fact the Sergeant was a U.S. National and not a U.S. Citizen may have influenced the decision.

Also, we need to recognize that Sergeant William W. Seay, was awarded a CMH for a similar act of valor along the same road less than a year earlier.

Read the citation here: http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail/3410/seay-william-w.php

I certainly don't want to take anything away from Sgt. Seay's "gallantry and intrepidity", but I find myself wondering if the reviewing officials ended up asking themselves how many CMHs they were going to give out for the same stretch of road - even if that same stretch of road was continually demanding heroism of that degree.

 

[hdwhit]

illinoisburt wrote:
Not going to happen unless you have an odd aftermarket barrel installed.

Well, thanks for calling me a liar.

The fact of the matter is that the Mini-14 I have has a 1:12 twist rate. I can look down the 18 inch barrel and count the one and one-half revolution of the rifling. If it was 1:10, I would have nearly two full revolutions in 18 inches.

 

[hdwhit]

BigBore44 wrote:
I’m going to cautiously disagree.

And you're welcome to do so.

The fact of the matter is the man sustained a wound that effectively cut him in half. You can come up with any explanation you care to that would somehow reduce the fact that he managed to survive the battle, the bumpy ride back over dirt roads, and the massive blood loss to a mere physics problem (remember, in your post you are taking exception with my presenting this story as a rebuttal to Sunray saying that surviving bullet wounds is merely a question of "Physics").

 

[hdwhit]

Jason W wrote:
I don’t think the rift between the slow and heavy crowd and the the fast and light crowd will ever be bridged.

Sure it will. Just as soon as the engineers come up with a way to launch a 650 grain .500 diameter bullet out of a 4 inch barrel at 3,000 fps and have felt-recoil comparable to a present-day 22LR. Not as wild as it sounds. The physicists finally have started to get a wave model for gravitation and once that is fully developed, it should be possible. Of course, you may have to carry around a power supply the size of a Delco battery and you may need to sign a waiver regarding any effects the electro-gravitational field has on your ability to reproduce, but it is - or soon will be - within reach.

 

[BigBore44]

And you're welcome to do so.

The fact of the matter is the man sustained a wound that effectively cut him in half. You can come up with any explanation you care to that would somehow reduce the fact that he managed to survive the battle, the bumpy ride back over dirt roads, and the massive blood loss to a mere physics problem (remember, in your post you are taking exception with my presenting this story as a rebuttal to Sunray saying that surviving bullet wounds is merely a question of "Physics").

Point noted. And I agree with you. I do not believe the reason he survived was physics. My disagreement was only with the statement I quoted in my post. The wound was mortal. Not immediately fatal. But maybe I’m arguing semantics. Either way, he was a hero. Phillipino national or not. And his story of bravery and heroism lives on.

 

[BigBore44]

Sure it will. Just as soon as the engineers come up with a way to launch a 650 grain .500 diameter bullet out of a 4 inch barrel at 3,000 fps and have felt-recoil comparable to a present-day 22LR. Not as wild as it sounds. The physicists finally have started to get a wave model for gravitation and once that is fully developed, it should be possible. Of course, you may have to carry around a power supply the size of a Delco battery and you may need to sign a waiver regarding any effects the electro-gravitational field has on your ability to reproduce, but it is - or soon will be - within reach.

But will it have a lever, slide, bolt, or charging handle?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I use .45 ACP 185gr +P and .357 Sig for my carry guns because I realized that the only way to guarantee a instant stop is a hit to the CNS. The growing trend in the firearms community that I at least see on Facebook groups is you want bullets that don't over penetrate to prevent collateral damage but a bullet that can't create a through and through wound might not have the power to sever the spinal cord. I chose my too calibers because of how deep they penetrate.

I could be wrong on this but I don't understand what people are talking about when they say you need a round that dumps all the energy into the badguy. Handguns don't have stopping power so all I see is you losing penetration for no gain.

 

[Hummer70]

I tend to look at it this way. Through and throughs from a handgun don't have the energy level to present great threats to personnel behind the shootee. CIP right about the time we moved here there was a shooting about 9 miles away and a cop shot a guy with a 357 mag and all three rounds went through the shootee and struck people in a crowd behind shootee. All the crowd wounds were minor wounds as the vast majority of energy was spent just going through the shootee..

Now that being said I was asked by a farmer friend to come shoot wild dogs that were killing his cows and I went to his farm one day with a M1 Garand and he told me he had just brought in a dead horse he picked up that morning and dumped it down on back side of his property as bait for the wild dogs.

I thought I have a chance to check out the penetration of 30.06 AP on meat so I went down and found the horse who had only been dead for a few hours and I got down in prone position and from about 25 yards shot him in the chest and to my great surprise the round exited right cheek of his hind end, went 75 yards and kicked dirt five feet in the air. Did not have a tape measure but best I could figure the round went through over five feet of meat and still had tremendous energy remaiing. Now that is what I call a potential for getting one to two more folks.

Had another buddy at the Battle of the Bulge and they got into a fire fight with a German Patrol and a guy in his squad moved right up to and stood hehind a tree that was about two feet thick and he saw a German take aim at him with a 98 Mauser and fired before my friend could get his M1 up to fire. He only got off one shot when I buddy shot the German. He noted when he got to his man he was down and he looked at the tree and the German had hit the tree dead center, round went through and got his buddy. who was still alive. He said after that if he had a shot at a German standing behind a tree, he was going to aim for the tree.

He said that the real job was getting him evaced as his buddy was like 200+ pounds and about 30 (late draftee) and the rest of the squad was like 19/21 and they were all small and skinny and he said it was a real job to haul him back to medics. He got medevaced and survived the shooting but was sent back to the states.

I carry a 303 Brit P14 conversion when I am out walking and I get shots at coyotes and snakes and I have passed up several shots because I know the location of every house in a three mile radius and I do a guick calculation before I break the shot and pass up anything that is remotely close though not in line with my shot.

Had another shooting here about time I moved here. Two guys were out on a high line right of way deer hunting and their stands were several hundred yards apart just at the edge of the right of way where they could see both ways.

One got got a shot on a buck and fired one round with a 7MM Rem Mag (I can't explain it but it seems about 75% of the folks around here think they need a magnum for a 135 lb deer). At any rate the buck drops and guy gets down out of his stand and goes and starts gutting out the buck and his buddy does not come help him so he walks up to his tree stand and his buddy is in the stand and he calls, no answer. He climbs up and his buddy is dead from a bullet wound to chest.

They recovered the bullet (7 Mag) and coroner ruled accidental death as the incoming shot angle on deer (who had a through and through) and the outgoing angle into his buddy correlated.

There was another shooting like 30 years ago. Little girl was shot in a swimming pool full of kids and killed. Bullet did a through and through. no one heard a shot. They drained the pool and did a bullet search, no bullet. One guy was arrested because he was reportedly shooting a non registered full up AK47 he had snuck in from Nam who was shooting in the area. He was not charged with the shooting of the little girl because he was further away than the AK47 could deliver a bullet and the direction he was shooting was not toward the pool. Last I talked to the Agent who investigated said case is still open.

When I was in Explorer Scouts we were building a obstacle course down on the land owned by the Associate Advisor (former Marine DI WW2 ) and four of us were standing in about a five foot circle talking when a bullet came in (subsonic) went right between all of us and I followed the phft sound and saw where it hit which was about 15 feet past us.. None of us heard the shot. We started digging and never found the bullet. The angle the shot came from was wooded for a couple miles..Thinking back on it I estimate the incoming angle was about 30 degrees which jives with max range.

My Dad told me when he was growing up on a farm in Ohio a car was coming up the road and all of a sudden veered and went off the road. This was about 1915. They went down to the car and driver had a hole in left side of his head and was dead. They never heard a shot and there was no gun in the car or road. Just open field on other side of road. Autopsy recovered a 22 bullet from head.

I knew a woman in Seale, Alabama who was in bedroom standing at a dresser when she sensed someone behind her. She knew it wasn't her husband as he had just left for work and he always yelled when he walked in door "It's me.". There was a Ruger MK1 in top drawer so she pulled it out, chambered a round and spun and pulled the trigger. A set of foot steps was heard running to back door. All she could tell it was a man shape.

She called sheriff who came down and all they could find was a empty shell casing. No bullet hole anywhere. No blood. Sheriff came in and told her she had made a big mistake and went on to tell her to go get at least a 38 and to quit using a 22.

Three weeks later a neighbor drops dead who lived about a half mile down the road. He had a fresh wound to forehead so Sheriff ordered autopsy and they found the 22 bullet from her gun in guy's brain. Case closed. Home invasion doesn't pay. So much for those depending on a 22 to do the job. She showed me the scene and exactly where both were standing which was about 8 feet apart.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I appreciate the link. I've read most of the WBR articles I've been able to find over the years, but most university libraries do not have it, so having the whole collection online is a blessing.

Having shot lots of deer with muzzleloaders and shotgun slugs, I've never doubted effectiveness of slow, heavy, large caliber projectiles. Lots of blood and a short tracking job is always a winning combination.

However, having introduced lots of new shooters and hunters to the sport, I've also seen how high levels of recoil can impair marksmanship progress. Modern bullet designs have made tremendous progress providing comparable terminal ballistics at much lower levels of recoil. A 25-06 or a .260 Rem has a lot less recoil than a 45-70 or 50 caliber muzzleloader, yet with the right bullet they can be just as effective on a deer-sized target. A 9mm has a lot less recoil than a 45 ACP, but modern bullets have closed the gap in terminal effectiveness, and a lot more shooters can master the 9mm, especially when it comes to making accurate follow-up shots under time pressure.

 

[someguy2800]

Not a handgun round but I shot a deer this morning with my 444 marlin. Its not exactly slow persay, but it is heavy. A 320 grain hard cast flat nose at 2100 fps. This was the first deer that I have shot with anything larger bore than a 270 and I was extremely impressed. Shot though both lungs broodside. Deer ran 50 yards or so before crumpling up, golf ball size entrance and exit wound. It bled like someone walked through the woods with a garden sprayer full of red paint. From the point of the shot to where it went down there was a solid 2 foot wide constant mist of blood on the snow. It was like following a red carpet right to the deer. My hunting partners all agreed we have never seen anything like that. The dirt was kicked up behind the deer and I followed the bullet through the dirt for about 2 feet but couldn't find the bullet. I think a lot of people overlook the importance of entrance and exit wound size in getting the deer to bleed enough to actually find it when hunting thick cover. I had to track two deer for family members today, both shot with 270's. First one had no exit wound as the bullet lodged in the far shoulder. It went 100 yard or so and I just randomly stumbled on it in the swamp. Second one was shot high on the top of the lungs. He went about 200 yards and dove into a thicket and died. I tracked him solely on the dirt he was kicking up with his hooves vs the 50 other deer tracks. Neither one bled a drop. We'd have never found the second one if not for the snow on the ground.

 

[illinoisburt]

Well, thanks for calling me a liar.

The fact of the matter is that the Mini-14 I have has a 1:12 twist rate. I can look down the 18 inch barrel and count the one and one-half revolution of the rifling. If it was 1:10, I would have nearly two full revolutions in 18 inches.

That is certainly not the intention. No lies, only likely mistaken. The point I wanted to make is that your rifle stabilizing the bullets is completely normal. I happen to like my Ruger rifles and shoot my old mini-14 a lot.

Ruger used to have the list on their website. Its been compiled pretty well here:

http://rugerforum.net/#/topics/134773

Edit: Rather than turn this thread into a twist debate, I posted a new how-to thread.

 

[Hummer70]

It's just like Marty said:
Bullet make holes that leak.
Big bullets make bigger holes and leak faster.
Two big holes leak twice as fast as one.
The Faster they leak out the quicker they go down.

 

[someguy2800]

Well, thanks for calling me a liar.

The fact of the matter is that the Mini-14 I have has a 1:12 twist rate. I can look down the 18 inch barrel and count the one and one-half revolution of the rifling. If it was 1:10, I would have nearly two full revolutions in 18 inches.

Quoted barrel length generally starts at the breech face, except for revolvers. So if your mini has an 18" barrel the first two inches would be chamber and throat leaving 16 of rifled bore. So 1:10 twist should be 1.6 turns of rifling.

 

[Art Eatman]

Too much pistol and not enough rifle. And, the usual wanderings. Enuf.