Why build a 1911 when you can make a low cost one better?

[Mn Fats]

I tried poly strikers. I'm back into 1911's. I understand the basics on a simple level. I have Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on the way from Amazon.

My question is about building up a Rock Island vs a Caspian/Foster build. Aren't they both cast frames on forged slides? Wouldn't quality be the same and easier to buy an RIA and tune it up by fitting Brown, EGW etc parts?



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[AlexanderA]

It's a matter of dollars and cents. A bare RIA frame is obviously less expensive than a complete gun. You can use that difference to pay for the rest of the parts. Or am I not understanding your question?

 

[WC145]

Why buy a low end 1911 and then put money and work into it when you can just buy a better quality gun to start with?

 

[lysanderxiii]

True, you could buy a RI and spend money fixing it, or buy an expensive one and have it right, right out of the box...

But remember, some problems aren't easily fixed by the inexperienced or without the proper tools...

So, you might wind up spending as much money as an expensive pistol but just have an RI frame.

And, I am fairly sure RI's frames are cast, not that anything is wrong with that, some Caspians have cast frames as well.

 

[larryh1108]

OP, I don't disagree with your premise. You can build a very nice 1911 the way you are suggesting.
However, if you ever decide to sell it, the frame will still say Rock Island and not Baer or Brown or WC, etc.
No matter how much lipstick you put on it, you will not get top dollar for that Rock Island.

 

[bersaguy]

Guess it depends on where you want to end up. I did a similar thing with a Sistema, over time. I just had to know them money I was putting into it was for me...I'll never get out what I put in if I were to sell it. Fortunately for me...I don't have to plans to ever sell it, and it's set up just how I want it. Dead nuts reliable, minute of man @ 50yards offhand, and still looks like a GI 1911A1. Plus, I didn't have to spend the money all at once...always had a good 1911 throughout the process, it just got better and better.

 

[627PCFan]

You made a large assumption. That RIA's are true to original Colt Specs and while fully operational you would have to undo some of RIA's fitting to get a high level build.

I'm onto my 5th 1911 build and Ill tell you, you don't do it for the cost, you do it for the satisfaction.

My 1st build and still my favorite.

 

[Mn Fats]

OP, I don't disagree with your premise. You can build a very nice 1911 the way you are suggesting.
However, if you ever decide to sell it, the frame will still say Rock Island and not Baer or Brown or WC, etc.
No matter how much lipstick you put on it, you will not get top dollar for that Rock Island.

Not trying to profit or even re sell but I believe you get where I'm coming from.

I'll try again, why build a Caspian/Foster slide frame combo when you can take an RIA, fit it properly, and replace MIM parts (if your concerned) and skip the frame and slide on a build being they're both cast frames on forged slides.

 

[Mn Fats]

You made a large assumption.

Genuine apologies for my lack of knowledge on the 1911.

 

[.38SuperMan]

It was about 28 years ago I did the photography for a catalog for a well known gun builder and did a tradeout. I sent him my mill spec 45 Springfield. What it got back was a truly beautiful pistol with flawless performance. When the pistol was finished the only thing remaining that was Springfield was the slide and frame. All internals were replaced with what my builder felt were the best and every thing was blended, the front strap hand checkered to 25 lpi and, Bomar cut and Bomar sights front and back, front slide serrations and brushed hardchrome plated by Checkmate. It’s not only beautiful but it’s never malfunctioned no matter what I’ve put through it.

I also had a Caspian 38 super race gun built from scratch around the same time. I went to an equally fine builder known for his race guns and wound up with a pistol that was comparable to my 45.

I’d say if you have a frame and slide laying around it’s a good way to go but if you’re going to start from scratch the Caspian is a good way to go.

I would still go with Caspian components if building from scratch but did have a serious problem with my 38 super. I shot ipsc for several years with it and had put probably 60-70,000 major rounds through it. I always used a shock buffer but the frame developed a sizable crack parallel to and just below the rails on the left side. I used aim point red dots then and this was close to where the mount attached.

Major 38 super loads give a pistol a real pounding so I really can’t blame it on Caspian. I became aware of the beating it was taking because my Aimpoints would self destruct alter about 15,000 rounds. Aimpoint replaced them under warranty a couple of times s year.

I discovered the crack when I replaced the scope mount in order to go to Propoint dots. I wound up having it welded and shot it a couple more years with no problems and the Propoints never gave a problem.

 

[Mn Fats]

It's a matter of dollars and cents. A bare RIA frame is obviously less expensive than a complete gun. You can use that difference to pay for the rest of the parts. Or am I not understanding your question?

Not understanding... My fault. I botched this thread.

A Caspian frame/slide combo starts at $400-$500+ minimum. Why not buy a Rock Island (fully complete) for $415 and tear it apart and build from there?

Both have cast frames. Both have forged slides. If one were to build up a 1911 to their liking, why not start with the Rock Island?

 

[JTQ]

One reason to start with an RIA is (theoretically) you're starting with a functioning firearm. Once you start replacing parts, hopefully one at a time, and you realize you've now turned your functioning RIA into a paperweight (or a full auto-pistol), you can remove the offending part and be back to a functioning gun.

 

[Drail]

You will know the answer to that question as soon as you start measuring and fitting parts. Things like holes that are misplaced, not square to the frame, not parallel to other holes, etc. And I have seen Colts like that. Bottom line - every one is different. (voice of Forrest Gump) "You don't never know what yer going to get." If I were going to build up a GI gun I would buy a SA Mil spec. and put Brownells on speed dial. In the 90s we built some very nice guns from stock Mil spec Springfields and Norincos. Bill Wilson actually used to do custom Norinco pistols in the 80s and 90s. I don't know where the Chinese are getting their steel from but it's pretty nice stuff. It's almost as hard as a file. They do have issues with some of their slide/barrel lug mating. My opinion of cast frames is if done properly they hold up - but forged chrome moly steel will always be better.

 

[JTQ]

My question is about building up a Rock Island vs a Caspian/Foster build. Aren't they both cast frames on forged slides? Wouldn't quality be the same and easier to buy an RIA and tune it up by fitting Brown, EGW etc parts?

I don't know, but I suspect the Caspian products may be truer to "spec". They may provide the gunsmith a more consistent starting point than what an RIA may provide.

 

[Mn Fats]

In the 90s we built some very nice guns from stock Mil spec Springfields

Good post Drail, cherry picked this qoute above. Have you seen what mil-spec Springfields sell for these days? $700 new.

Even then, the advantage is just forged on forged and truer design?

Overall, I'm understanding the only difference will be the Caspian/Foster Springer etc will be more in spec than a RIA?..

I appreciate the replies

 

[Mn Fats]

I don't know, but I suspect the Caspian products may be truer to "spec". They may provide the gunsmith a more consistent starting point than what an RIA may provide.

I see. Thank you!

 

[Drail]

Back when I was doing this as a job we paid $389 for a Mil spec and we bought a lot of them. I cannot make any honest claims about which companies are following the blueprint closer than their competition today. A few companies don't even seem to be using the original blueprint. But for the money I have had really good luck with Springfield frames. They are no longer made by IMBEL in Brazil but they are pretty close to the original blueprint. Those IMBEL built guns were very high quality for the price. I have 3 in my safe that will outshoot most guys and I'll never sell them. My experience is to build a good 1911 you will end up spending at least the purchase price of the gun on quality parts. You will never get that money back. Who cares? When you go to the range - it's all worth every penny.

 

[JTQ]

I cannot make any honest claims about which companies are following the blueprint closer than their competition today. A few companies don't even seem to be using the original blueprint.

While I'm sure Les Baer makes a superb 1911, it's pretty interesting watching a group of 1911 gunsmiths get going on Les Baer 1911's.

 

[tarosean]

Both have cast frames. Both have forged slides. If one were to build up a 1911 to their liking, why not start with the Rock Island?

You're assuming the metallurgy is the same between the two.

 

[ess45]

I bought an RIA slide because I like the markings, but I have to send it out for the sight cut.







The frame is from a popular US 1911 maker. Most of the parts are premium aftermarket.

 

[Mn Fats]

You're assuming the metallurgy is the same between the two.

So one outlasts the other? Not trying to be wise. Just trying to make sense of it all.

So far the only thing that im to understand is Caspian has truer "Mil Specs" over RIA. Which is good to know

 

[cfullgraf]

I built three M1911s 18-20 years ago from bare slides and frames. I have no illusions that they are as good as a Les Baer or Wilson but I feel they are better than the run of the mill M1911s in the sub $1000 price range.

The major advantage, besides the desire to build my own, was that I could use the parts that I wanted. One of the pistols that I built uses optical sights only and the slide does not have sight cuts in it.

A minor advantage of building your own from a bare slide and frame is that you do not have a pile of useless parts left over that you removed from complete pistol that you started the modification/upgrade with.

As an aside, the use of quality parts in an M1911 can help with accuracy and reliability of the build. I have a Thompson M1911 from the early 1990s. On a lark, I replaced the OEM barrel with a used Colt Mark IV Series 70 barrel that I had pulled from another M1911. With the higher quality yet used barrel, the Thompson's accuracy improved. This made me a believer in buying good, quality parts in my builds.

 

[Iggy]

Go to Fusion arms and buy a kit. Most of the detailed stuff is already done.

 

[Otto]

I understand the basics on a simple level. I have Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on the way from Amazon.

Don't forget to add a Dremel tool.

 

[WVsig]

Not trying to profit or even re sell but I believe you get where I'm coming from.

I'll try again, why build a Caspian/Foster slide frame combo when you can take an RIA, fit it properly, and replace MIM parts (if your concerned) and skip the frame and slide on a build being they're both cast frames on forged slides.

The parts will be of different quality. The Caspian/Foster slide and frame will be better than the RIA. Are they better enough to justify the cost difference this is up to you to decide but if I am going to put time, money and effort into building a pistol I am going to start with as strong a foundation as close to the 1911 spec as I can so that the gun will go together properly and function with a high degree of accuracy and reliability. I personally would not start with a RIA frame slide and barrel. All of the 1911 smiths I have ever worked with, guys who are dedicated to the platform, would not recommend building up a RIA in their shops so I personally would look for a better starting point. For not much more money you can setup up to a SA and have a better starting point if you want to start with a full basic pistol. IMHO