Why didn't they call the .357 Magnum the .38 Magnum instead?

[Kleanbore]

I remain fascinated by the 9.8mm Colt of 1912. I figure they went with the exotic metric nomenclature because they were going to offer it for sale in the Balkans and other parts of the world where the Colt-FN agreement to divide up the market did not apply. Also because 9.8mm = .386". I don't know if that is bore or groove, but it sounds entirely too close to the many existing nominal .38 rounds even though actually larger

Yes, apparently if was intended for Romania, which was open to both Browning and Colt.

Colt and Browning played around with it, callinghtesame cartridge different hings.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/1/22/98-mm-or-965-mm/

 

[buck460XVR]

Why do the call it a .460 Mag instead of a .45 Mag? Kinda what happens when you invent a new caliber....you get to name it.

 

[mcb]

Why do the call it a .460 Mag instead of a .45 Mag? Kinda what happens when you invent a new caliber....you get to name it.

454 Casull got it right... sort of or should have been 451 Casull? 450 Bushmaster should be 452 Bushmaster? 350 Legend should be... well we are still arguing that one... And are we naming them for bore or grove diameter? Max material or Min material conditions?

 

[Kleanbore]

Both .357 magnum and the .38 Special can be shot out of a .357 Magnum. The .38 Special was invented well before the .357 Magnum in 1898 while the .357 Magnum was invented in 1935.

This may sound stupid by why didn't they call the .357 Magnum the .38 Magnum instead?

Why was the .38 Special called the .38 Soecial?

When is a .36 not a .36? When is a ..38 a .357?

Let's go back to 1851. The original "Belt Pistol of Navy Caliber" used spherical projectiles of .375 inch diameter--approximately .38.

When patent expirations enabled the use of self-contained cartridges in bored-through cartridges, Colt introduced the .38 Short Colt cartridge. It had an outside-heeled bullet that was larger in diameter than the internal diameter of the case, a la .22 RF, and it fit the old percussion guns.

In 1875, a longer version was introduced for the Colt Lightning, Colt Model P, and other revolvers. It too had a bullet diameter that was close to .38 inches, and it was called the .38 Long Colt.

At some point, the .38 LC was revised to contain bullets of .357 inch diameter. It was still called the .38 Long Colt. It originally had soft lead hollow-base bullets that expanded to fit the larger bore diameter of the early firearms.

The .38 LC was considered underpowered for service use.

In 1898, Smith and Wesson introduced a longer, more powerful version of the .38 Long Colt, and they called it the .38 S&W Special. Why change?

It could be chambered in old .38 LC revolvers that had straight chamber bores. Because firing the new cartridge in those old guns could be very dangerous, later .38 LC guns had stepped-down chamber bores to prevent that.

That possibility became much more serious when new high-powered .38 Special cartridges were introduced. Intended for use in large (".44") frame revolvers, the load was called the ".38-44", and there were warnings all over the box.

The .357 Remington Magnum is essentially a lengthened .38-44 with a higher case capacity and much higher operating pressures.

It is possible to insert .357 cartridges into an old .38 colt Lightning revolver. Firing them would be disastrous.

That would probably have been more apt to happen had the cartridges were packaged as .38-Something. I would not discount the mitigation of that risk as one reason for calling it a .357-Something rather than a .38.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, apparently if was intended for Romania, which was open to both Browning and Colt.

Colt and Browning played around with it, callinghtesame cartridge different hings.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/1/22/98-mm-or-965-mm/

I agree with Wiley, 9.65 FN and 9.8 Colt are probably the same barrel and case, but Jan Stevenson's book shows both and they have different profile bullets. The Colt a roundnose, the FN a truncated cone.

An older American Rifleman article on the 9.8 Colt said that Eugene Reising was trying to sell the guns in Romania but headquarters called him home when the US Army contract was confirmed. They figured they had all the business they could handle at home.

Somebody at Colt waltzed it around again several years later. He used spare parts to assemble another gun to show to the board. All the 9.8 ammo had been shot up, so he made a .38 Auto barrel for it. Nobody was interested then, either.

In 1898, Smith and Wesson introduced a longer, more powerful version of the .38 Long Colt, and they called it the .38 S&W Special. Why change?

The usual assumption is that the .38 S&W Special is special because it has 8 grains more lead and three grains more black powder than .38 Government/Long Colt, and because of the superior inside lubricated groove diameter bullet.

One theorist says it is like the .32 Winchester Special, a dual powder round; factory loaded with smokeless - after the early days - but best reloaded with black because of the variable quality of 1901 smokeless.

 

[Kleanbore]

The usual assumption is that the .38 S&W Special is special because it has 8 grains more lead and three grains more black powder than .38 Government/Long Colt, and because of the superior inside lubricated groove diameter bullet.

Yes. I meant, why change from .38.

Some time as recently as 2009, I saw a box of .38 Short Colt ammo on a store shelf. Thy said they had one elderly female customer who bought it.

 

[buck460XVR]

454 Casull got it right... sort of or should have been 451 Casull? 450 Bushmaster should be 452 Bushmaster? 350 Legend should be... well we are still arguing that one... And are we naming them for bore or grove diameter? Max material or Min material conditions?

One only has to look at caliber designations to realize there is no rhyme or reason to caliber names . Again, invent a new one and you can name it any thing you want.

 

[Jim Watson]

in the 1960s-70s there was a store here that sold loose ammo. Need six to load your revolver, seven to load your .45 automatic, five to load your hunting rifle, no problem, ammo priced per each. Too much liability, too low profit these days.

Nomenclature:
In 1878 Smith and Wesson introduced the .32 S&W. In 1896 they introduced the .32 S&W Long. Contrary to Internet Usage, they did not rename the .32 S&W as .32 Short. The vernacular hereabouts had the .32 S&W Long sometimes called ".32 Special."
In 1877 Smith and Wesson introduced the .38 S&W. The .38 S&W Special is not related to .38 S&W. Some say it is a scaleup of the .32 S&W Long, see above. Most connect it with the .38 Government/Long Colt.
Some regional vernaculars had the .38 S&W called ".38 Regular."

 

[sparkyv]

Looks like it was already taken...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Winchester_Magnum
Besides, "460 Smith & Wesson Magnum" sounds waaayyy cool!

Why do the call it a .460 Mag instead of a .45 Mag? Kinda what happens when you invent a new caliber....you get to name it.

 

[Riomouse911]

...and the 460 Ford sounds so much LARGER than the 454 Chevy....6 cubes (or .1 liter) spread over 8 cylinders ain't all that much.

All about the image

Stay safe.

 

[Slamfire]

...and the 460 Ford sounds so much LARGER than the 454 Chevy....6 cubes (or .1 liter) spread over 8 cylinders ain't all that much.

All about the image

Stay safe.

Just looked up the specifications for the 70's engine. The 454 Chevy made more horsepower than the 460 Ford. But, I bet the bigger number (460) sold more engines, because who had the horsepower specs when they were at the dealer ship?

 

[Jim Watson]

I never understood those cars. Wasn't the NASCAR maximum at the time 7 litres = 427 ci? I'd have made my advertising run with the racers as it had for a while.

 

[Aim1]

...and the 460 Ford sounds so much LARGER than the 454 Chevy....6 cubes (or .1 liter) spread over 8 cylinders ain't all that much.

All about the image

Stay safe.

To be fair I've heard of the 454 and I think a lot of other people have too but never heard of the 460 Ford.

 

[Kleanbore]

Fun, but let's get back on topic,

 

[Riomouse911]

I was confused for ages when "caliber vs cartridge" was brought up...like when talking about the .38 S&W (.361) vs a .38 S&W Special (.357)...until I realized that there really isn't a rhyme or reason to it. They are what they are.

Stay safe.

 

[Kleanbore]

Interestingly, the .44 Colt cartridge, which was discontinued in 1940, had a heeled bullet with a diameter of .451 inches.

It was made for cartridge conversions of the Colt Belt Pistol of Army Caliber, the Model 1861.

 

[BSA1]

I strongly suspect the name “357 Magnum” came about the same way as many other great ideas...a several guys in a room smoking cigars and after drinking a fair amount of alcoholic beverages.

Magnum back then was the name for large bottles of Champagne. So somewhere in the course of consuming a large amount of Champagne someone had a bright flash and the rest is history.

 

[MI2600]

Wow, that topic got beaten to death.

 

[Kleanbore]

Wow, that topic got beaten to death

With a lot of speculation. Not much illumination.