Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?

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Waywatcher said: When was cocked and locked ever truly "in vogue"?

It became "in vogue" when this guy who is now dead started telling us all we could do it safely, and stop worrying about it. Some dead Marine by the name of Jeff Cooper.

Confederate said: Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

There's a guy here who has laid down the glove to anyone who wishes to go up against his "box stock" 1911 with any other currently produced system to see who'll fail first.

Maybe he'll come back and remind everyone it still stands.
 
Layin' Down the Glove

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>Maybe he'll come back and remind everyone it still stands.<
***********

That woulda been me...and it does. Lexington, NC. Say when. Bring lots of ammo and mags, or a friend to keep'em loaded, cause things get hot when ya play follow the leader...;)
 
BullfrogKen said: It became "in vogue" when this guy who is now dead started telling us all we could do it safely, and stop worrying about it. Some dead Marine by the name of Jeff Cooper.

He hardly made it "in vogue". Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.

My point is that for something to fall "out of vogue" it must be "in vogue" in the first place, which really wasn't the case.
 
Maybe we need to be more precise? C&L was, and remains, in vogue, for that percentage of the handgun shooting population that shoots as much or more than it carries. It scares the bejeezus out of everyone else.

A citizen noted the hammer back on the 1911 carried in the waist band by Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger. The Citizen asks, "Isn't That Dangerous?" Charley replied, " I wouldn't carry the son of a bitch if it wasn't dangerous."
 
I don't read Vogue...

I never realised they covered cocked and locked issue in such depth. I may have to add Vogue to my reading list.

The reason cocked and locked looks scary is because for a couple of hundred years all guns had something like a hammer, and when it was back, the gun was able to fire. How many flintlocks and caplocks have safeties? Until the last couple of decades how many guns with hammers had any kind of safety? A few auto pistols was all. All the rifles and shotguns with hammers, the hammer is the safety. So, a cocked gun is associated with being "dangerous", which actually, it is.

There may be a few exceptions, but generally this is true. You didn't cock the gun until you were ready to shoot, so a cocked gun means you are ready to shoot. And being ready to go off (shoot) looks dangerous to a lot of people.

DA autos didn't go anywhere much until the Walther P-38. And the P-38 only went big in Germany, where it had advantages for the German military. The idea pretty much faded away for the next 30 years, and then came on again, strong. The whole "Wundernine" thing. DA, double stack, it was what everybody wanted. Well, not everybody.:)

Look at the equipment under discussion here. Auto pistols, defensive/duty use; All the designs fall into two broad categories.

Those intended for military use, and everything else. The pistols are either designed to meet a military contract, or are designed, and then go looking for military/police contracts to fill.

Different design features have military priority. Police use may change the priority if features, and civilian use may change them yet again.

And the military, police, and even civilians change their mind about what is most important, from time to time.

My opinion is that SA autos are best for the military and civilians who know what they are doing. DA autos are best for police. Military, police and civilians who are not as knowledgeable/trained are best served by DA revolvers. People with no knowledge/training should run, call 911, use a baseball bat, contemplate their navel, open a dialogue with their assailant, or whatever other course of action seems reasonable to them.

The logic here is that, military combat, and civilian self defense are a case of identify target, shoot. Soldiers are supposed to shoot the enemy when they see him. When civilians need to shoot, they need to shoot. The SA auto shines in this regard.

Police, on the other hand, use the pistol as a threat of force much more often than they actually have to fire it. How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot? Lots, from what people tell me. The DA auto with it's long (relatively) heavy first shot pull is a lot less likely to be fired unintentionally, in a high stress adrenaline pumped situation. Makes better sense to me for police work.

And then there is the Glock. Fantastic plastic. The greatrest thing ever. Combat tupperware. etc, etc. Radically different, requiring (slightly) different manual of arms. Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat. Some people like them, some don't. Some people are obsessive about it.

Striker fired, "safety" on the trigger! And other "nontraditional" features. Where does this fit in? The argument rages.

Cocked and locked is no less safe than any other system. It is no slower either. For many years, police couldn't use hollowpoints, because they looked "scary" in beltloops. When the cops switched to autos, where the public couldn't see the spare ammo, they went to hollowpoints. Cocked and locked doesn't get it for uniform wear in a lot of places. Even in the military. But for action, or in preparation for action, cocked and locked is what serious people use.
 
Waywatcher said: Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.

That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

44AMP said: How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot?

Picking a weapon system to make up for violating the 4 Rules is a poor reason. We ought to focus on training not to violate the rules than encouraging it by picking an action more forgiving of the violation.
 
I'm not sure, but I think it was Jeff Cooper who related this story. A southern cop was observing a parade go by. A small boy was standing next to him and happened to notice that his 1911 .45 had the hammer cocked. He tugged on the cop's pants and when he looked down told him, "Hey, Mister, that gun's hammer's cocked." The cop looked down at him and said, "Yes, yes, that's right, sonny, it is." The boy said, "Well, isn't that dangerous?" To which the cop squatted all the way down to his level and replied, "You damned betcha."
 
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Waywatcher said: Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.
That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

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44AMP said: How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot?
Picking a weapon system to make up for violating the 4 Rules is a poor reason. We ought to focus on training not to violate the rules than encouraging it by picking an action more forgiving of the violation.

What? Are you saying police shouldn't draw their weapons to cover a suspect if they're not going to shoot them? Because that is insane.


As for me, I don't think I will ever get into cocked and locked. I like carrying hammer down, safety on. I know that I can draw and turn off the safety very quickly, and firing in DA is easy. I know that 99.99% of the time while carrying as a civilian, I am not going to actually need to draw or fire. So I don't think I need to walk around with a gun that's just waiting to go off. Now if I'm in Iraq and I know there are BGs all over the place, then maybe it will be different. But I just don't see the small benefits of cocked and locked of DA/SA outweighing my desire for some extra safety here in the US.
 
I'm happy with Condition 1, but a lot of people who carry guns are a bit challenged and these days, hazards are assessed and elimated where possible. The powers to be have to think this way now: Condition 1 is dangerous if the operator is not exact in his use of the weapon (whyou are pointing it at people, it is a weapon, not just a gun) there is the potential for an accident. Ban Condition 1, no chance of an accident, simple. If they don't some smarta$$ed lawyer says, Mrs Felonmutha's little gangbanger would still be here if the officer had been more effective handling his weapon! How could the Dept allow this and place her lil boy at unnecessary risk? I'm dramitising this a bit, but you can see if an organisation allows a potentially dangerous practice to continue, it stand a chance of being bought to task over it. Assess the risk, eliminate it. Simple, Condition 1 bites the dust, sad but true. This is the way it is these days, I don't like it, it shouldn't be like it, but it is! Bugger! Mick.
 
DRMMR02 Said:
So I don't think I need to walk around with a gun that's just waiting to go off.

I don't know how to describe your ignorance about the mechanics of 1911's without it sounding insulting, so let me explain that I use the word "ignorance" in the classic sense ("the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.") rather than the way it's often used as an insult (which I do not intend).

You exemplify the large number of people who have never taken the time to learn the mechanics and operation of the 1911 pistol and therefore apply your misunderstanding of it as a prejudice ("just waiting to go off").

Just let me commend you on your decision to not carry a 1911 at all.
We're all safer for it. ;)

Carter
 
BullfrogKen said:That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

I am not disputing what Jeff Cooper did for cocked & locked carry.

It's never been "in vogue" to carry a cocked & locked pistol, is my point.

For clarity...
Vogue [vohg]:The prevailing fashion, practice, or style
 
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