Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 98s1lightning, Dec 5, 2018.
Count me in the irrational dislike crowd. I was introduced to one before I was big enough for the gun to fit correctly. Since then I have shot ruffles with way more recoil and still hate it
The 280 is about perfect. I like is Ackley version even better.
Rifles, not ruffles.
Mark me as another longtime fan of the .280, going back to the 1970's when I first began hunting with one. Since then I've hunted with a .280 from Alaska to Africa and beyond and it has always been up to the job. I've used it with bullets aw heavy as 160gr. but consider 140 gr Nosler 140 Partitions about as good as it gonna get. Attached are a couple of 280's, at top is one built around a Brno small ring Mauser that was originally a 7X57 converted to a lightweight .280 sporter simply by rechambering and having a nice stock fitted. The other is built on a slick 1909 Argentine action and stocked with pretty wood in the classic style..
I have couple 30-06's and couple 280AI's and none are factory. One of the 280AI is wildcat build before spec 280AI and spec was 280.
The 280 been up/down over the years and has small following and it's same with 280AI. I was very lucky did have to choose.
Because in 112 years deer have developed immunity to 30-06. Just ask the creedmore dudes... 280 is one of the rounds I would be interested in if I were buying a rifle today. I would probably be scratching my head trying to decide between .280 and 7-08.
The .280 was RCBS founder Fred Huntington's favorite medium game rifle back then it was a wildcat. Being a longtime friend of O'Connor, Fred & Jack use to argue the minute differences between the .280 & the .270 & the superiority of one over the other. Eventually the .280 reached factory status but other factors, like the then new 7mm Rem Mag back then, greatly diminished its popularity. Calling the .280 the 7mm Rem Express didn't help things either.
IMHO, the .280 is superior to the 7mm Rem Mag, not performance-wise, but the cartridge is pert-near perfect efficiency-wise. If history was fair, the .280 should have totally de-throned the .270 & .30-06 over the last 60 years.
BTW: this post is from a devout .270 shooter.
Because I like 7mm stuff.
Based on my CMP Talladega experiences, I think 300 yards is a long distance for ethical hunting. I absolutely know 600 yards shots at animals would be unethical for me, because of the number of rounds it has taken to get a shot to register. How many shooters have 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 yard demonstrated zero's? Those that don't, they make their best guess based on 100 yard zero's and book values. Book values seldom are the actual come ups.
I also see, even at 300 yards, how much a bullet drifts with little changes in wind and position. I have shot enough in cold and hot conditions to see the point of impact change at all distances. In cold weather, I am dressed in layers, that changes the stock weld, and, I think, stiffens me, so the point of impact is always different. In hot weather, my heart rate goes way the heck up. No one ever shoots as well in 90 F weather as they do in 50 F weather. When you shoot in a quilted coat with sling, 50-60 degrees in the shade is heaven. I die in the summer sunlite. The NRA target display is either F Class or NRA two MOA target, and you know, I really doubt any of those promoting 500, 600, 700, 800, 1000 yard shots have ever demonstrated a NRA two MOA ten ring cold bore shot at those distances, or an X ring cold bore shot.
I have a three hundred yard cold bore: Same ammunition, had the zero's from a previous session.
Go from one ammunition type to another, and the point of impact changes. So does group size. Elevation is 3 1/4 MOA up, windage 1/2 MOA left
This factory ammunition was unimpressive for accuracy at distance, and even though elevation is 4.0 MOA up, look how far the group is below the ten ring.
At 600 yards the NRA two MOA ten ring is 12 inches and the X ring is 6 inches. In NRA competition, you get two sighters before you go for record. But all you are doing is punching paper. Animals are not video arcade targets, poor shot placement creates pain and suffering in a helpless animal.
At 300 yards, what is the difference in the size of the wound channel and penetration between a 280 and 30-06? What about 500 yards, 600 yards? How many shots can you keep within an eight inch circle at those distances? If that is too small, how about a 12 inch circle? How likely are you hit dead center with a cold bore shot, with either caliber?
"You’ll find out that there is virtually no practicle gap anywhere in cartridge performance. Somebody somewhere has already made it. If you have a burning desire for something that floats your particular boat, have at it. It in real world hunting real critters, it’s gonna make no difference."
Yep. That said, I think it would be a boring old world if we didn't have all these slightly different calibers to play around with and argue the the merits of each. It's no different than "My Chevy is better, faster, etc. than your Ford/ whatever conversations.
I agree, just as the 7mm-08 should have been created instead of the .308. But it was a "metric" and we were still metric averse when it was designed.
I think it's a bit humorous that what might be the most efficient caliber of all time - the 7mm-08, is really nothing more than a return to the venerable 7x57 of old, making us all realize just how far ahead of it's time the 7x57 really was.
Sums up my opinion. It won't do anything markedly better than similar rounds, but look at it this way; if you were buying a vehicle and had 3 engine choices, one of which offered slightly better power and fuel economy than the other 2 at no additional cost, why wouldn't you go that route?
For me, the .30-06 will always be my fall back answer to the “I can’t decide what to use this season...” conundrum I face every year. It doesn’t thrill me, but it never lets me down either.
I have been a big 6.5 A-square fan for many years, and the 338-06 is one of my favorite hunting rounds of all time, however I am NOT a .270win fan (my first deer was shot with a 270, before I “upgraded” to a .30-06, and then my brother ran that .270 ever since, so OBVIOUSLY it has to be inferior). The 280 and I have had brief trists, one being an AI version, but my real love affair with the 7mm’s have been 7x57, 7RM, 284 Shehane, and 7-08, in order of preference and passion, with the 280/280AI kind of falling off of the edge of my desk. Generally, if I need or want more than a 7-08/6.5creed class offers, I go to 7RM, but even that is a brief stop for only a few niche applications, and “more” really means 300RUM or 338LM class of long range cartridges (338wm for larger game hunting), or 416/458 safari magnums, naturally.
For a reloader, there is no difference in 280AI and 30-06 until the bullet is in the air, where the 280 has advantages. For a new hunter or first time gun owner, the .30-06 has a lot of soft advantages in supply chain and logistics. For a reloader and experienced enthusiast, all of that evaporates so the ballistic and terminal advantages of the 280AI really dominate the comparison.
I'm curious - among those, the 7x57 and 7-08 are ballistically the closest, yet they flank the ends of your preference list. Why do you prefer one (7x57?) over the other? 7x57 handloads can push a heavier bullet a tad harder?
A quick internet search did not reveal what temple that came off, but it ought to be engraved in stone somewhere.
No one has attempted to address my question about the differences in lethality and hit probability at distance, apparently that is not important, or, more likely, since that is something that can't be calculated on a keyboard, it is ignored. Instead what I read is same logic and methodology that we have all have read since forever in the popular press, but that stuff is advertising! It does not have to be physically, technically, or logically consistent in any way. All it has to do is sell product, now.
What does that say, when we believe advertising is truth?
Anyone ever read about the narcissism of minor differences? It is a psychological concept, explains a lot about conflicts between population groups that I can't tell a difference between. They all look the same. So here we have all this huge fluff, over minor differences between essentially identical cartridges, and no one has quantified a difference other than numbers that come off a calculator.
Problem with 280 it's just 280 and hunters that would buy rifles wasn't interest. Wby had 7 Wby and found market.
The interest in 280AI is in long range and they have 280 Sherman.
There is more 280AI being build vs factory. Same with 284 case on long action
It is? They seem to pretty much equally kill any size game to me. What a .270 will do, so will the .280 and vise versa.
If a handloading long range target shooter was to speak up about bullet choice, I would have to agree. Long range target bullets for sure favor the 7mm.
Hunting rounds, they seem pretty equal to me. I have 90gr Speer all the way up to 180gr Woodleigh Weldcore for my .270win. Not sure it's giving anything up to any 280 Rem I've seen. For what one may gain in the almost non-existent difference in diameter the other gains in BC for the same weight. They are twins imho UNLESS you don't roll your own. In that case the .270Win (and the 30-06) blows the 280Rem out of the water. Soooo much more ammo to choose from, they sale 270 and '06 everywhere and alot of factory 280Rem is watered down compared to these 2.
With all that said, I love the 280Rem. It's a cold blooded killer and a cartridge that's a little more rare and I like to be different sometimes. To be perfectly honest, from 260 Rem, 6.5 CM, 7mm-08, 270Win, 280Rem, 7Mag, 308Win, and 30-06 I could not tell any difference from one to the other for whitetail hunting with shots all within approx 300yds and 270Win, 280Rem, and 7Mag for muledeer performed near identical but I suspect for larger game or farther out the 7Mag MIGHT outperform the others.
If a person wants a certain cartridge like say a 280, then buy one. If a rifle you really like is chambered in it, buy it. If you own one of these cartridges and looking to buy one of the other for enhanced HUNTING performance, I don't think you will ever see it, personally.
My Gun Club President has hunted all North American game, and I was making an ignorant yik, yak statement about the 270 Win, 150 grain bullets, and the combination not being appropriate for Elk or Moose. And he asked "you think a 150 won't penetrate?". He had taken Moose with a 270 Win, a number of them. I remember he said "don't shoot them in the water!" . I got the idea that retrieving a dead, wet, Moose out of a river/pond is a lot more difficult than it sounds. Might be a horrible experience if you don't have waders.
Calibers are getting to be a fashion statement. Plaid was so last year. This year the big question is, "whether Hot Pink is about to eclipse Millennial Pink."
This should be the start of every hunters safety course. So many people forget that. Or they're reading distance is defined in terms like (way out there).
I have 2 rifles that I shoot enough to guarantee 1 shot hits at 400 (with an improvised rest and a sling). I still don't like shooting game at that range.
For people in mountain country it may be a different story, I still don't like it.
Any amount of discussion or reasoning that might occur here on these forums about caliber selection probably pales in comparison to the illogical hand-wringing and biased promotional campaigns that have gone on behind closed doors in military panels.
Choosing a 280 over a 30-06 is just a choice to be different from the crowd. There's not enough of a performance difference either way to matter. The area where there is a practical difference is factory ammunition cost and availability, where the 30-06 has a pronounced advantage.
I have almost completely gotten away from long action cartridges, the exception being my FIL's 7mm Rem Mag and a Ruger No.1 RSI in 7x57, and no longer own anything in .30 caliber. If I ever buy (or build) another long action rifle, it will be chambered in .280 AI. Why? Because I am liking my .243 and .260 Ackley variants, and one in .284 would be fun. No other reason.
There is only .007" difference between the diameter of a 270 bullet and a 280 bullet. Of course, the 270 pressure spec is 5 KPSI higher than that of the 280. But actual pressure tolerance of the two cartridges is the same. They are ballistic twins.
My 7x57 will push a 150 grain bullet at 2864 FPS, at a measured 56.6 KPSI. That doesn't leave me wanting a lot more.
It's odd how a particular firearm will "speak" to some people, saying "Rescue me from this dusty old pawn shop and take me hunting." If that's the case, then there is no use arguing. The firearm has spoken.
There really isn’t an objective driver for my subjective preference of 7x57 over 7-08. I’ll readily admit, I NEVER recommend anyone build/buy a Mauser over a 7-08. Purely subjective.
The first rifle I bought with the intention of long range shooting was a 7x57. At the time, 20-some years ago, I knew I wanted a fast 7 without Magnum recoil or powder cost, and I favored the 30-06 over the 308win (still do), so I knew I didn’t want a 7 on a 308 case. I picked up a BDL and shot the barrel out trying to learn what 1,000yrds tasted like. Objectively, I would not buy one today, for any application, but I fell in love with it back then and it’s still my favorite 7mm cartridge.
The 7-08, essentially it’s ballistic twin for any application, is a fantastic round, and I recommend it highly for any hunter buying their first deer or elk rifle. But as I said above - I just haven’t ever fell in love with the 308win, so even though I shoot a handful of 7-08’s and recommend it so highly, I personally would rather tell someone my rifle is chambered in 284 Shehane, 7RM, or 7 Mauser.
My 7mm Rem mag enjoyment is as a long range hunting rifle, and my 284 Shehane passion came from experiences in 1000yrd benchrest after Boyd Allen advised me to try the round after I had burned up my 6.5-284 in half of a season.
7 WSM is another great round which has totally fallen off of the edge of my desk. I really enjoyed the rifle, and objectively, I’d recommend a 7wsm or Rsaum over a 7RM for a new buyer/reloader, but the 7RM just has that foothold, like a childhood sweetheart, so I look past some of its objective shortcomings.
In MY testing of big game bullets for bigger big game, the 7mm 175NP out performed anything in .277" I could buy...
With todays bullets things may be different, but I still prefer NP's for all of my big game hunting... SO, I'll stand by my original statement.
I'm a hunter, not a sniper, so I don't care about long range shooting...
You wouldn't think that .007" would make such a difference, until you hand load and start shopping for bullets.
I wouldn't trade my 7-08's ability to throw 162 grain ELD-X's for anything a .270 can do.
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