WI Legislators altering CCW Bill

[StopTheGrays]

Madison - Legislators behind a proposal that would allow people to carry concealed guns are altering their bill so police officers can check whether vehicle owners have concealed weapons permits during routine traffic stops.

Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Waterford), one of the bill’s authors, said legislators are making the change to garner the support of police officers and sheriffs.

"We sat back and took a hard look at it," he said. "We just thought that we want law enforcement to be on board here."

Under the original version of the bill (AB 763), police officers during routine traffic stops could not check license plates against a database of concealed weapons permit holders before approaching vehicles.

They will now be allowed to do so, but only after pulling them over for traffic violations. That provision will prevent officers from targeting people with permits without probable cause, he said.

Gunderson and other lawmakers will announce the changes at 10 a.m. today in a Capitol news conference with the Wisconsin Troopers Association and the Milwaukee Police Association.

I did not see this posted yet and I thought I would give the WI members a heads up.

 

[carebear]

This isn't necessarily a horrible thing in itself. It will depend on the officer's response to knowing there's a permitee in the car. Is there mandatory notification in the bill? If so, he'll find out when he walks up to the window anyway.

Alaska's permit used to pop-up when they ran your plate and you were required to inform the officer you were armed at the time in any event. What the individual officer's did was up to them and their view of "officer safety". All the ones I dealt with simply asked where I was carrying and went on with the interaction.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...police officers can check whether vehicle owners have concealed weapons permits during routine traffic stops.

It'd make an awful lot more sense for cops to be able to check whether the owner is a felon. I'm sure the alteration is being tossed in to appease the cops.

We're not a police state if the police have final say over the rights we do and don't get to exercise, since after all, some of them might actually be in favor of our having rights.

 

[XD_fan]

Here in Washington when they run your license it comes up. Part of why we have no requirement to show your permit nor much problem with cops disarming people routinely. Least with it this way the cop has some idea of who he's dealing with.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

In Missouri it says CCW on your Driver's License. (but we have reciprocity with Florida...)

 

[Gray Peterson]

....

Is there any provision of this legislation that will prevent felony stops on CCW holders for merely being CCW holders?

 

[tommytrauma]

I'm glad to see this. I suspect this might well be the 'make or break' in getting this bill passed into law. We can deal with any abuses or overreactions (cough / appleton / cough) as they arise, and I expect any problems will die out as cops get used to the reality of CCW.

 

[antsi]

I'm glad to see this. I suspect this might well be the 'make or break' in getting this bill passed into law. We can deal with any abuses or overreactions (cough / appleton / cough) as they arise, and I expect any problems will die out as cops get used to the reality of CCW.

I would suggest to WI folks if you have to give on this to get CCW passed, you should do it. Just getting some kind of CCW is a good thing - that is the proverbial camel's nose in the tent. It will be a lot easier to clean up a messy CCW law than trying to pass one you think is perfect.

Is there any provision of this legislation that will prevent felony stops on CCW holders for merely being CCW holders?

It would be a good idea to put such language in the bill.
However, if the law passes without it, and if it develops that there is some local area where the po-po are doing a lot of such stops, you could get a protest together by getting a lot of CCW owners to drive around unarmed in that locality. If they pull over enough CCW tags without finding any guns, they will eventually get discouraged and go pick on the criminals instead.

 

[sturmruger]

YES YES YES YES

I did hear that they are plannin on adding something to the bill that makes it a crime to randomly run license plates looking for CCW holders. While I don't like the idea of officers knowing if I am carrying a gun with me I think this compromise is going to be the last nail in the coffin to sealing this as a done deal!! Having the support of the WI Troopers Association is going to be a huge lift to our cause!!!

Here is another article:

Amendment would let police check gun permits

By Todd Richmond
Associated Press
November 30, 2005


Police could check whether the owner of a car they stop is carrying a concealed weapon under a compromise that sponsors of a bill to let Wisconsin residents carry hidden weapons have reached with law enforcement groups.

Sponsors say the amendment eliminates police lobbying organizations' major hang-ups with the Republican-authored bill.

Under the measure, whenever an officer runs the registration of a vehicle he stops, a screen would pop up alerting him if the owner has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, said Casey Perry, executive director of the Wisconsin Troopers Association.

The bill's creators have insisted the list of permit holders remain secret to ensure criminals don't prey on people who aren't carrying. Police groups say that would put officers in danger.

Perry said under the amendment, any officer caught running registrations excessively to find out who has permits - verified through state Department of Justice records that track the number of times an officer runs a registration - would be charged with a misdemeanor.

Rep. Scott Gunderson, R-Waterford, said police associations added the language for the misdemeanor charge into the bill themselves.

The bill, the subject of a fierce debate at the Capitol, would allow Wisconsin residents who pass firearms training and obtain permits to carry concealed handguns, knives and billy clubs in most public places. The few exceptions include schools, taverns, and police stations.

Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle vetoed similar legislation passed in 2003. The Republican-controlled Legislature fell short of overriding Doyle in early 2004.

Identical versions of the current bill are moving through both the Republican-controlled Senate and Assembly. The Joint Finance Committee was scheduled to take them up today.

Doyle spokeswoman Melanie Fonder said the permit-alert system won't persuade the governor to sign the bill.

"It doesn't change the fact the governor doesn't think people should be carrying weapons around," Fonder said.


Published: 9:47 AM 11/30/05

 

[Monkeyleg]

Our NRA lobbyist read me the language of the amendment last night, and it's very strict regarding misuse of the database. An officer will not be able to just run a plate on a whim.

The amendment got us the support of the Wisconsin Troopers Association, which is a big plus. They're going to actively lobby for the bill.

There are also some other law enforcement groups who will actively lobby, instead of just saying they support it as they did in the past.

Doyle now does not have the rank-and-file troopers and officers to use as props.

And there's more good news coming.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As an outsider this doesn't strike me as a poison pill of any description. I have no idea how many CCW states already do this, but I'm sure it's a lot. I think the police have more things to do with their time than to randomly pick a license plate and run it to see if the owner has a CCW. Even if it pops up affirmative, they would still have to fabricate an excuse for a stop. Not all CCW holders carry all the time or every day, so even without an intentional "let's fool the cops" effort I expect they would come up dry a high percentage of the time anyway.

If that's the price of getting CCW in WI, I'd think it well worthwhile.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

To my WI friends.. Get it passed, you can clean it up later.

In MO we ... passed the bill

had the Liberal Demogog POS governor veto it.

overrode the veto

went to court to defend the bill which was passed from attacks from the Liberal Demogogs in St. Louis and KC.

beat them.

Had to put up with St. Louis and KC sherriffs who refused to issue CCW permits.

beat them...

 

[FPrice]

I have to side with those who counsel to accept the bill with this proviso in order to get LE behind it and get it moving. If the LE lobby for the bill (LE lobbying for civilian CCW, think about it) then I think any fears of police abuse will prove to be groundless.

Hopefully there will not be a long list of places where you cannot carry without good reason. For example, courts, schools, etc.

 

[Janitor]

It'd make an awful lot more sense for cops to be able to check whether the owner is a felon.

+1

In MN they can see if you have a CCW when they run your plates at a stop. You're not required to disclose unless asked. While I'm not ever delighted that a concession needs to be made, sometimes it does. I am SO much more comfortable in a 'shall issue' state that lets the LEOs know you're carrying than I would be in a 'may issue' state that this particular consession is often forgotten about.

Of course - that's the unfortunate side to consessions, isn't it?

It's worth it. Get your laws passed - just remember to always at least question the little voice saying "Don't worry about it - it's a small thing."
-

 

[fiveoboy01]

And there's more good news coming.

Aww, I wanna hear it now!

On another note, has Gary Hamblin publicly stated his stance on the bill this time around? I am wondering if he will be opposed to it now that the permit process is out of the Sherrif Department's hands...

 

[sturmruger]

Dick if there is more good news then this I think I am going to die of a heart attack!! My hopes are higher then ever.


Since I am 3.5 hours from Madison and can only make it down one day would it be better for me to show up for the Senate debate, or the Assembly??


Thanks

 

[Sheldon J]

In MIchigan

We have CCW
When stopped you must discolse, and surrender you weapon of requested during the stop.
When they run you plates if you have not discosed it will show up on LEAN.
It is aganst the law to just run plates for the heck of it, i.e. girl friend, neighbor, you get the idea.
It has not been a problem to date.
Now if we could just get rid of our "safety check" AKA green card AKA gun registration. That would be great.

 

[AJ Dual]

It actualy was rather surprising to me that initialy the bill did not allow for LEO's to run plates and DL's for CCW. Since it's a state issued license, I just assumed that it would be searchable on those squad car terminals. As a nominal "little-L" right-libertarian, I firmly believe "less is more" when it comes to government, but I too recognized this as a critical compromise to advance the bill...

(I mean, come-on, we're allowing our inaleianable, and 2nd Ammendment confirmed, not granted, rights to be licensed for crying out loud... How much more compromise do we need? However, "politics is the art of the possible, as Otto Von Bismark once said.)

I can't imagine that Zein and Gunderson (the bill's writer/sponsors..) were actualy opposed to this. I think it was deliberately left out as a later compromise to give the fence-sitting legislators some cover to get on board with passage, and hopefuly, the gubanatorial veto override, of the PPA. "Crazy like a fox" comes to mind.

I too can't wait to hear what the other good news Monkeyleg has for us.

 

[Monkeyleg]

sturmruger: "Since I am 3.5 hours from Madison and can only make it down one day would it be better for me to show up for the Senate debate, or the Assembly??"

If you have to choose, then show up for the Assembly debate and vote.

While there's almost no doubt that the Senate will pass the bill, the question is by how many votes? My guess is that we're going to have 19 Republicans and all five Democrats who voted for the veto override last year. IOW, two more votes than necessary for an override.

It's in the assembly where things get hairy. There are enough votes there to override a veto, but if one or two Democrats feels he/she has a brighter future with Doyle than the gun owners in that district, we would be doomed..

Right now it looks like we could have not just six, but possibly even eight Democrat votes to override. Caveat emptor: this is a head count of those who either have been with us 100%, or are freshman legislators from strong pro-gun districts who have started to soil their underwear realizing that the gun owner vote is much stronger than they realized. (One freshman Democrat who inherited his seat from a very respected, and now retired, Democrat representative expressed his surprise at how strong the support was for CCW in his district. This freshman had run on a campaign oppossing CCW. Maybe he should have listened to the advice of his older and wiser predecessor before taking an anti-gun stance in a pro-gun district).

I know my posts on this sound preachy, and that I go off on tangents.

But it's only because we're there. We've already won. We have the backing of the very law enforcement groups that Doyle used in the past against us. We have the lobbyists from groups that were previously opposed to the bill coming to our side and asking for concessions.

We have the votes to override Doyle. No doubt about it.

Now it's up to all of us to keep those votes, or lose.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I know my posts on this sound preachy, and that I go off on tangents.

Wrong!

Monkeyleg, you're doing an excellent job of keeping all of us up to date on Wisconsin's fight for CCW. Your fight is everybody's fight, and it's especially important to the people in Kansas, Nebraska, Illinois, and the rest of the states that deliberately infringe our civil rights. A fact or detail you may consider tangential may turn out to be of great value to others next year or the year after.

Keep up the good work, please.

 

[Strings]

>We can deal with any abuses or overreactions (cough / appleton / cough) as they arise<

Why do I get the feeling that the temporary population of Appleton will be increasing after passage, as High Roaders start heading there to "get busted", and start our class-action suit against the Chief?

Hmmm... lunch at Seven Angels restaurant (eastern end of College Ave) sounds good to me...

 

[Monkeyleg]

For some reason, the "edit" function hasn't been working for me lately, so I'll just have to reply to my own post.

AJ DUAL: "I too can't wait to hear what the other good news Monkeyleg has for us."

Sometimes good news comes packaged as "good news/bad news."

Depends upon your perspective, and how bad you want something.

As for Zien and Gunderson being opposed to giving law enforcement the ability to just run plates searching for permit holders: yes, they were. The threats by the chief in Appleton, and other chief LEO's, about drawing down on permit holders, or making "special" stops because someone has a permit...those were real threats. And the authors and the sponsors of the bill were concerned about abuse of police powers.

Now that LEO's can be held criminally liable for singling out permit holders, or for misusing the list of permit holders, I think a good balance has been struck.