jahwarrior
Member
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court says that the State Police handgun transfer database is a "non-ownership registry," Allegheny County Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 580 Pa. 149, 860 A.2d 10, 22, n.7 (Pa. 2004).
So to Wilkes-Barre, that REALLY MEANS that the PSP database contains "weapon ownership information." See http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/ne...d=571464&rfi=6.
Wow.
Hello Wilkes Barre - possession is 9/10 of the law when it comes to personal property. What's next - will the Wilkes-Barre police start seizing children from parents on the street until they can bring down "zer papers" and prove that they are the rightful parents?
Mike Stollenwerk
--
Notes and references:
The Allegheny County Sportsmen's League lost in their effort to have the PSP handgun transfer record database declared an unlawful "gun registry."
Here's what the Pa. S. Ct. said about the PSP records pertaining to handgun transfers thru gun dealers:
"the database maintained by the Pennsylvania State Police is merely a record of handgun sales and does not qualify as a “registry of firearm ownership” as prohibited by Section 6111.4." Allegheny County Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 860 A.2d 10, 22 (Pa. 2004).
Further, the Court said that "the Pennsylvania State Police's non-ownership-registry purpose in maintaining the database, i.e., to assist in criminal investigations and in returning guns to their lawful owners pursuant to Section 6111.1(b)(4). Thus, if a handgun were involved in a criminal investigation or misplaced by the owner, the Pennsylvania State Police could contact the [last] purchaser of the gun." 860 A.2d at 22, n.7 (emphasis added).
And said "the applications/records of sale cannot be used to establish a registry of firearm ownership, i.e., a registry that tracks individuals who have possession and control over firearms." 860 A.2d at 23 (emphasis added).
And the Court noted that the PSP record of transfer database does not at all pertain to the ownership of handguns: "Section 6111.4 only prohibits a registry of ownership and, therefore, the dispositive issue is what is being registered by the Pennsylvania State Police- i.e., whether the database is a record of firearm ownership or of something else. The Firearms Act does not define ownership, but the common definition is: “the state of fact of being an owner; legal right of possession.” Webster's New World Dictionary (2nd College Edition), p. 1016 (1986). Additionally, the term “own” is defined as “to possess; hold as personal property.” Id., at p. 1015. In examining the contents of the Pennsylvania State Police's database, it becomes clear that, although the database may be a registry, it is not a registry of firearm ownership.
It is undisputed that the database at issue is not a registry of ownership, but rather, merely reflects the applications/records of sale for handgun purchases that occur in Pennsylvania. The database does not maintain a record of all firearms owned by Pennsylvanians, which would include long guns, or firearms that are owned by Pennsylvanians, but not purchased in the Commonwealth. Additionally, the database of handgun sales does not include handguns that are transferred between spouses, parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. See 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111(c). Nor is the database a survey of existing ownership. The database maintained by the Commonwealth merely contains information regarding the sales of handguns in the Commonwealth. Such a database does not amount to a “registry of firearm ownership” as prohibited by the Firearms Act." 860 A.2d at 22-23 (emphasis added).
--
http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/ne...d=571464&rfi=6
‘Open carry’ issue occurs in city
06/11/2008
A simmering issue over the right to openly bear arms in public made its way to Wilkes-Barre this weekend.
Police stopped a New Jersey man with a gun in a holster on his hip around 9:30 p.m. Saturday at Sherman and South streets.
Upon questioning the man, police seized his gun and took it to headquarters. He was then free to go and wasn’t charged.
Officers took the gun because initial reports were the man had the gun in his hand and “proper ownership of the weapon could not be established,” the city said in a press release Tuesday. The gun will remain in police custody until ownership is established, the release said.
A dozen members of a gun rights group brought this “open carry” issue to the forefront last month by openly carrying their guns into dinner at a Dickson City restaurant. The group is criticizing Wilkes-Barre police’s actions.
“They had no lawful right to seize his property. There is no more reason to establish ownership of a handgun than it is for your cell phone,” said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. “We now have two instances in the same region of Pennsylvania in which police think they could confiscate guns under this color of proving ownership.”
Pennsylvania does not have a gun registry. A Philadelphia lawmaker last year introduced a bill to create one, but it failed badly.
In the aftermath of the Dickson City case, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola said, in general, people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.
“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”
Police officials and attorneys at the time noted police could not confiscate someone’s gun to check ownership without reasonable suspicion.
Wilkes-Barre police say they were called to investigate the incident on Saturday when neighbors made a complaint of a man standing at East Northampton and Sherman streets with a gun in his hand.
That was not reasonable suspicion of any crime, said Stollenwerk.
Stollenwerk is not sure how exactly the man will “establish ownership.” Some gun owners do not have any paper documentation, he said.
“I have nothing, except that it’s on my hip or in my gun safe,” he said.
City spokeswoman Bridget Giunta said the person was stopped because “officers responded to a complaint of a man with a gun in his hand.” She said weapon ownership information is maintained by the state police and stolen status can also be ascertained by running the serial number through a database.
The “open carry” movement is apparently gaining popularity nationwide. The Los Angeles Times last week published a comprehensive story about the growing movement, noting it is legal, but often frowned upon by police.
The story was called, “Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace ‘open carry.’”
So to Wilkes-Barre, that REALLY MEANS that the PSP database contains "weapon ownership information." See http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/ne...d=571464&rfi=6.
Wow.
Hello Wilkes Barre - possession is 9/10 of the law when it comes to personal property. What's next - will the Wilkes-Barre police start seizing children from parents on the street until they can bring down "zer papers" and prove that they are the rightful parents?
Mike Stollenwerk
--
Notes and references:
The Allegheny County Sportsmen's League lost in their effort to have the PSP handgun transfer record database declared an unlawful "gun registry."
Here's what the Pa. S. Ct. said about the PSP records pertaining to handgun transfers thru gun dealers:
"the database maintained by the Pennsylvania State Police is merely a record of handgun sales and does not qualify as a “registry of firearm ownership” as prohibited by Section 6111.4." Allegheny County Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 860 A.2d 10, 22 (Pa. 2004).
Further, the Court said that "the Pennsylvania State Police's non-ownership-registry purpose in maintaining the database, i.e., to assist in criminal investigations and in returning guns to their lawful owners pursuant to Section 6111.1(b)(4). Thus, if a handgun were involved in a criminal investigation or misplaced by the owner, the Pennsylvania State Police could contact the [last] purchaser of the gun." 860 A.2d at 22, n.7 (emphasis added).
And said "the applications/records of sale cannot be used to establish a registry of firearm ownership, i.e., a registry that tracks individuals who have possession and control over firearms." 860 A.2d at 23 (emphasis added).
And the Court noted that the PSP record of transfer database does not at all pertain to the ownership of handguns: "Section 6111.4 only prohibits a registry of ownership and, therefore, the dispositive issue is what is being registered by the Pennsylvania State Police- i.e., whether the database is a record of firearm ownership or of something else. The Firearms Act does not define ownership, but the common definition is: “the state of fact of being an owner; legal right of possession.” Webster's New World Dictionary (2nd College Edition), p. 1016 (1986). Additionally, the term “own” is defined as “to possess; hold as personal property.” Id., at p. 1015. In examining the contents of the Pennsylvania State Police's database, it becomes clear that, although the database may be a registry, it is not a registry of firearm ownership.
It is undisputed that the database at issue is not a registry of ownership, but rather, merely reflects the applications/records of sale for handgun purchases that occur in Pennsylvania. The database does not maintain a record of all firearms owned by Pennsylvanians, which would include long guns, or firearms that are owned by Pennsylvanians, but not purchased in the Commonwealth. Additionally, the database of handgun sales does not include handguns that are transferred between spouses, parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. See 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111(c). Nor is the database a survey of existing ownership. The database maintained by the Commonwealth merely contains information regarding the sales of handguns in the Commonwealth. Such a database does not amount to a “registry of firearm ownership” as prohibited by the Firearms Act." 860 A.2d at 22-23 (emphasis added).
--
http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/ne...d=571464&rfi=6
‘Open carry’ issue occurs in city
06/11/2008
A simmering issue over the right to openly bear arms in public made its way to Wilkes-Barre this weekend.
Police stopped a New Jersey man with a gun in a holster on his hip around 9:30 p.m. Saturday at Sherman and South streets.
Upon questioning the man, police seized his gun and took it to headquarters. He was then free to go and wasn’t charged.
Officers took the gun because initial reports were the man had the gun in his hand and “proper ownership of the weapon could not be established,” the city said in a press release Tuesday. The gun will remain in police custody until ownership is established, the release said.
A dozen members of a gun rights group brought this “open carry” issue to the forefront last month by openly carrying their guns into dinner at a Dickson City restaurant. The group is criticizing Wilkes-Barre police’s actions.
“They had no lawful right to seize his property. There is no more reason to establish ownership of a handgun than it is for your cell phone,” said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. “We now have two instances in the same region of Pennsylvania in which police think they could confiscate guns under this color of proving ownership.”
Pennsylvania does not have a gun registry. A Philadelphia lawmaker last year introduced a bill to create one, but it failed badly.
In the aftermath of the Dickson City case, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola said, in general, people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.
“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”
Police officials and attorneys at the time noted police could not confiscate someone’s gun to check ownership without reasonable suspicion.
Wilkes-Barre police say they were called to investigate the incident on Saturday when neighbors made a complaint of a man standing at East Northampton and Sherman streets with a gun in his hand.
That was not reasonable suspicion of any crime, said Stollenwerk.
Stollenwerk is not sure how exactly the man will “establish ownership.” Some gun owners do not have any paper documentation, he said.
“I have nothing, except that it’s on my hip or in my gun safe,” he said.
City spokeswoman Bridget Giunta said the person was stopped because “officers responded to a complaint of a man with a gun in his hand.” She said weapon ownership information is maintained by the state police and stolen status can also be ascertained by running the serial number through a database.
The “open carry” movement is apparently gaining popularity nationwide. The Los Angeles Times last week published a comprehensive story about the growing movement, noting it is legal, but often frowned upon by police.
The story was called, “Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace ‘open carry.’”
