winchester M70 or CZ 550

[milcaztra]

I've decided to buy a rifle in .375 H&H, and I've narrowed the choice to either a Winchester Model 70 classic (stainless synthetic) or a CZ 550 safari. Let's assume no modifications -- just a low power variable scope.

I'm looking at the following factors:

Manufacturing quality out of the box. Fit and finish. Parts quality.

Reliability. Probably both excellent and equal.

Durability. I'm sure I'll never wear out either, but let's assume some knocking around. The CZ stats show that it's almost 2 lbs heavy than the Winchester---I don't know how correct this is. Is the CZ's action beefier than the Winchester's. How does the bottom metal compare?

Need for gunsmithing for "acceptable" performance?

Aftermarket support. Nod goes to Winchester for stocks, parts, gunsmithing, etc. Is there any problem finding good rings for the CZ?

Value. CZ is better priced but I'll spend the extra $200/$300 if there's a good reason to go with Winchester.

Appearance and kewl factor.


Any advice appreciated!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

What do you want this rifle for, bragging, or serious hunting?

If the latter, you are going to give it a beating. Last month in Colorado, I was plunge-stepping in 2 feet of snow, and melted snow would re-freeze on rifles. I saw several locked up with ice, and a good many with rust under the wood, where melting flakes had seeped between metal and wood.

The stainless Model 70 is what I would go for, with a good quality scope.

And frankly, the Model 70 Classic is a fine rifle, even if it's not really a pre-64.

 

[WonderNine]

How can I possibly recommend a CZ when I'm able to hit a tack at 100 yards with my father's Winchester model 70 in .243 and .223?

I have never had a single problem with a Winchester firearm ever. And that's saying alot as I've shot alot of different firearms.

My home defense gun is a Winchester model 94 30-30 loaded with Winchester Power Point.

 

[Tag]

A good friends dad has hunted Africa, Alaska, Russia, New Zeland, South America... several times over.

The only rifle he uses is a Classic Stainless .338 w/ a Leupold Vari-X III.

the same friend has had a Classic Stailess 7mm Rem. Mag. for the last 8 years, I don't know that he's cleaned it more than twice. Still shoot's like a champ.

Thing's like this made my decision to get a Winchester Model 70 real easy.

In fact I'm trying to talk him into some serious resident Coyote hunting this winter

What are you planning on going after with this beast?


take care

 

[milcaztra]

What do I want the rifle for? I have a dream ---- and that dream includes animals with big teeth and claws, first in Alaska and then in Africa. We're talking about starting two to three years from now, so it's not an immediate need, but I'd like to get to know a rifle for a little while before using it for real. I want this to be a serious working rifle with good, broad capabilities.

The .375 H&H seems to be the ticket. I've thought about the .338 Win Mag, but the .375 H&H just seems to have a magnetic quality about it. The .375 gives up trajectory past 300-400 yards, but it's better up close when the pucker hits. In theory, I could use .375 for just about anything, even if it would look awfully funny with light game. I use to reload a little, but sold my set-up---I'll might get back into it so that I can download the .375 for lighter game.

So, the next decision is which rifle. I have a good friend who says Winchester all the way -- "the rifleman's rifle." Stainless is a really good idea, especially for Alaska or tropical weather. I had checked previous posts and some said that Winchester quality has dropped recently -- it's still probably plenty good for me, but I wanted to sound out my thoughts a little. Do you know of any specific problems that sometimes come up with current production Winchesters? Do any parts need to be replaced from the get go, out of the box? Any recommended modifications for a serious use rifle?

On the other hand, I've read nothing but good about the CZ 550. I have some CZ pistols that I really like -- one of the best values out there -- so I like the limited samples I've seen of CZ production. I've never handled the 550, but from what I've read, the action seems to be pretty beefy and well made. The price difference is only $200-300, so I'll buy the Winchester without a second thought if it's the better rifle. That's a small price for a lifetime investment, especially considering airfare and licenses to hunt interesting game.

So what do you think about the following mods?

1. Chop the barrel to 20" for easier carrying and manueverability? Is 20" too short? 24" is definitely better for ballistics, but I plan to carry this thing a lot and I don't know where I'll be walking/climbing --- thick brush, tall grass, etc.

2. Removable muzzle brake? Ok, I don't like recoil, but the range time is important to me. A removable brake seems to be a good compromise. What's a good removable brake?

3. McMillan stock? I've read that the newer factory Winchester stocks aren't as good as the old stocks. What that means in practical terms I don't know. I do like McMillan products though.

4. What about having iron sights put on and using quick detach rings? Worth the expense? I'd probably wait on this and the new stock just because of expense. What are the best, beefiest QD rings out there? Leupold? Or should I just forget about irons and get Badger rings?

5. Leupold 2.5-10x scope? Or should I go lower to a 1.75-6x variable?

Anything else that I'm missing?

Thanks for the replies.

 

[MP-44]

Buy American. I bought a CZ 452 about two months ago. I feel pretty guilty right now. I could have purchased a Savage or Marlin would have probably been just as happy with it and would have helped U.S manufacturing in a small way.

 

[Will Fennell]

Like the M70....

I've got the Stainless M70 .375. Its a great rifle, and I would not hesitate to recommend it. I'm sure the CZ is fine[I like thier pistols also], but the M70 is sooooo much smoother. I like the safety arrangement better also. I have the M70 set up with Leupold's excellent QD scope mounts, and a fixed 4x scope. The mounts are holding up fine, and definetly returns to zero reliably. The stock on the M70 is fine, but I would have it glass bedded to help ensure that it holds zero.

I have a McMillan "griffon and Howe" style stock on my 30/06 Pre 64 M70, and like it alot also. If I were going to upgrade my stock, this is what I would go to

If you get the CZ, check out Jim Brockman's work[he can do amazing things for the smoothness of the action]...

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/

...heck, check him out anyway. He is Da Man for work like this.....he did my M70-30/06 and did a FINE JOB. Good work and a good person.

BTW, I have a removable brake on my .375.....after shooting it a few times....it remains removed . Yes, it helps with recoil, but its damned LOUD.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I've compared the two side by side.

The CZ's euro-style stock is not something I'm fond of, nor do I like the front swivel mounted on the stock. However, the CZ's mounting base is twice as wide as the Winchester's.. that's important when mounting a scope on a heavy recoiling rifle.

As far as cutting the barrel down, I've had the same thought. The 25 inch CZ bore is too long, 20-22" would be far better. Then again, you should get better ballistics with the long barrel.

On the greater weight, a heavy rifle will kick you less.

Both should have a 1/4 rib and three leaf express sights. The CZ has three folders, but no rib. The CZ also has a hooded front sight, in a "hurry" you can use the hood as an index sight. (That means the leopard is about to eat you pull the trigger!)

The full on Safari grade Winchester (1/4 rib, crossbolts, grip cap, barrel mounted swivel) is quite a bit more expensive than the Stainless Model 70, still an African rifle should be a weapon of blued steel and wood. Are you buying a safe queen or a hunting rifle?

My dad's old 760 pump gun is a maze of worn bluing, mild scratches, dings etc. I bought my Savage 116 in stainless and plastic so that I'd never wince at scratches, dings etc.

Overall, I think fit and finish is better on the CZ than the Winchester, deeper bluing, better wood to metal fit.

THe CZ is a great rifle, but I'd likely spend an extra $100-200 making it a perfect rifle.

 

[Jaywalker]

I like the Winchester. I bought the Win 70 Classic LT in .300 Win Mag a couple of months ago after comparing it the CZ. I didn't care for the CZ's trigger, and I still don't know whether Europeans' knuckles drag on the ground - they seem to like stock lengths that are impossible for me to mount comfortably. With a 'smith having to work both those issues, the CZ lost a lot of its charm (and price advantage).

After I bought the M70, I found that the triggers are set up so that an individual can adjust the trigger himself, were he so inclined, working just from a set of instructions that have no pictures. I found no metalwork flaws on the M70, and the inletting was very neat. The very few initial groups I've fired indicate it's close to a one MOA rifle. I have no regrets over my purchase.

Jaywalker

 

[Kestrel]

All good points here. I've gone through the same thing, myself. Over on that big-bore shooting forum (escapes me at the moment...), they seem to favor the CZ and the Ruger RSMs over the Winchester, but I'm sure you would be very happy with any of them.

Will is right. If you get the CZ or the Winchester, call Jim Brockman. That's what I plan to do. I've read that Jim Brockman can make a CZ sing.

Personally, I wouldn't cut the barrel. On the .375, I want all the barrel lenght I can get. I do like it's versatility, too. As for a brake, I wouldn't. Very LOUD. You will just remove it and then you'll have the threads or cross-pin grooves forever on the end of the barrel to look at.

One other point. The .375 is very versatile. You can literally use it for almost anything. However, I've thought if I ever got the chance to hunt something REALLY big, that could eat me (such as grizzly, brown bear, Kodiak bear, Cape Buffalo, etc.), I would use a CZ or Ruger in .458 Lott. The .375 has taken all of these plenty of times, but I guess if I'm the one hunting them, I want a bigger sledgehammer.

Steve

 

[Al Thompson]

Keep the iron sights and get the QD rings. Have a second scope zeroed - seen several high dollar scopes break at the worst times.

May want to reverse your hunting directions - Africa seems to be less expensive and has more variety of game.

Barrel length is very subjective. I don't have problems moving in thick stuff with a 26 inch barreled 12 ga, not sure why a rifle with a 25 inch barrel would be worse. May actually be shorter than the shotgun.

 

[Tag]

If this rifle is to be a 'working gun', more than somthing you shoot at the range once in a while and admire in your den, I'd get a synthetic stock. Why even take the chance? Synthetics stocks are basically immune to everything that will damage a wood stock.