Winchester Model 70 frustration

[igotta40]

My Super Grade .243 Winchester, late production (2018) with 3 rounds loaded, when I cycle the bolt after the first round, will consistently eject the empty brass, and the second cartridge, almost every time. The 3rd round stays in place. Im using factory ammo, Hornady Black 90 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter. I pick up the spit out cartridge and reload it, then shoot and cycle that second round and the last round normally.
Am I loading improperly? I push 3 rounds in via the ejection port, and they click into place okay, or at least it seems so.
This is the only bolt action rifle I’ve ever used that has done this. The action is clean and oiled. Otherwise, the rifle is flawless. What would cause this anomaly?

 

[MCMXI]

I pick up the spit out cartridge and reload it, then shoot and cycle that second round and the last round normally.

So you're loading left, right, left and the second round is staying in the magazine during loading but not when cycling the bolt with two rounds in the magazine. Does it make a difference as to how fast you pull the bolt back to extract the first round? The top round in the magazine is pushed down by the bolt when the bolt is foward so it sounds like the second round is popping out of the magazine when the bolt is coming back and giving up control to the right feedlip. That's why I'm curious if the speed at which you pull the bolt back has any effect on the problem.

When you think about what keeps that second round securely in the magazine, it's the geometry of the right feedlip, spring force, the angle at which the round below acts on the round above, the dimensions of the magazine well, and the dimensions of the round itself. For example, if the wrong follower is in the rifle, that would affect the angle at which the round on the follower contacts the round above it. If the magazine well (box) is the wrong width, that would affect the angle at which the rounds interact with each other. If the spring has the wrong temper or dimensions, that would affect the force of round on round, round on feedlip, and round on underside of the bolt. Lots of things to think about.

 

[BigBore44]

Have you taken the gun apart? I suspect it’s a magazine spring tension or follower issue.

 

[jmr40]

You should be able to load 5 in the magazine + 1 in the chamber with that rifle. It is possible that the magazine spring could be installed backwards. There is a tab on the spring that slides into a slot on the inside of the floorplate. It should look like this.

Muzzle is down in the photo for reference

 

[saiga308]

My Super Grade .243 Winchester, late production (2018) with 3 rounds loaded, when I cycle the bolt after the first round, will consistently eject the empty brass, and the second cartridge, almost every time. The 3rd round stays in place. Im using factory ammo, Hornady Black 90 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter. I pick up the spit out cartridge and reload it, then shoot and cycle that second round and the last round normally.
Am I loading improperly? I push 3 rounds in via the ejection port, and they click into place okay, or at least it seems so.
This is the only bolt action rifle I’ve ever used that has done this. The action is clean and oiled. Otherwise, the rifle is flawless. What would cause this anomaly?

i am confused are you taking about ejection of the brass or feeding issues
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/winchester-model-70-feeding-issues.839202/

sage5907Member
You either have a weak spring in your box magazine or the extractor is binding on the rear of the cartridge

 

[MCMXI]

You should be able to load 5 in the magazine + 1 in the chamber with that rifle. It is possible that the magazine spring could be installed backwards. There is a tab on the spring that slides into a slot on the inside of the floorplate. It should look like this.

The OP hasn't said that he can't load 5 rounds in the magazine, only that when he loads three rounds the second round won't stay in the magazine when extracting/ejecting the first round. He probably shoots 3-round groups so only loads three rounds into the magazine. Also, if the spring is in backwards, how would it still function just fine for the first and third rounds in the magazine but not for the second? That said, a good test would be to load up five rounds left, right, left, right, left and see if the problem persists for rounds two and four. If it does, it's probably a feedlip or magwell issue.

 

[sage5907]

I have seen people pull the bolt back all the way to eject a cartridge and without knowing it they push the bolt handle forward slightly in a small hiccup which could push the next cartridge out of the magazine. They then pull the bolt back again to the rear without realizing they were doing the hiccup thinking they had made one single pull to the rear. The reason the second round is popped out is because this cartridge is on the left side of the magazine and the extractor which catches the next round is on the right and the rim of the cartridge goes into the extractor later in the stroke. When the next round is on the right side of the magazine it quickly comes into contact with the extractor and the cartridge rim slides up behind the extractor earlier in the stroke. It's just a hunch but I'll bet that if you hold the rifle in your hands it feeds correctly every time, and the double feeds are happening only when the bolt is cycled when the rifle is laying on a rest.

 

[MCMXI]

I have seen people pull the bolt back all the way to eject a cartridge and without knowing it they push the bolt handle forward slightly in a small hiccup which could push the next cartridge out of the magazine. They then pull the bolt back again to the rear without realizing they were doing the hiccup thinking they had made one single pull to the rear. The reason the second round is popped out is because this cartridge is on the left side of the magazine and the extractor which catches the next round is on the right and the rim of the cartridge goes into the extractor later in the stroke. When the next round is on the right side of the magazine it quickly comes into contact with the extractor and the cartridge rim slides up behind the extractor earlier in the stroke. It's just a hunch but I'll bet that if you hold the rifle in your hands it feeds correctly every time, and the double feeds are happening only when the bolt is cycled when the rifle is laying on a rest.

Just about every rifle magazine I've encountered, whether detachable or internal, requires the cartridge to move about 50% of it's OAL before it clears the feedlips. If you have a rifle that will allow a cartridge to pop out of the magazine either intentionally or unintentionally if you "push the bolt handle forward slightly" please let me know the make and model so that I never buy one by mistake!

 

[sage5907]

Just about every rifle magazine I've encountered, whether detachable or internal, requires the cartridge to move about 50% of it's OAL before it clears the feedlips. If you have a rifle that will allow a cartridge to pop out of the magazine either intentionally or unintentionally if you "push the bolt handle forward slightly" please let me know the make and model so that I never buy one by mistake!

Don't tell me that you have never had two cartridge cases between the chamber and the magazine of a bolt action rifle at the same time? It's usually a fired case and a loaded case. When that happens it's usually because someone short stroked the bolt. If that has never happened to you your mister perfect!

 

[MCMXI]

Don't tell me that you have never had two cartridge cases between the chamber and the magazine of a bolt action rifle at the same time? It's usually a fired case and a loaded case. When that happens it's usually because someone short stroked the bolt. If that has never happened to you your mister perfect!

If you short stroke the bolt, you typically won't pick up a round at all. I've done that on occasion where the empty case has extracted and ejected, but the next pull of the trigger resulted in "click" because no round was chambered. It's easier to do with a very slick action that doesn't provide a lot of resistance when stripping a round from the magazine e.g. Accuracy International. This happened to a coworker's young son a couple of weeks ago while hunting. He missed with the first shot, got exited, ran the bolt, short-stroked and "click".

But this is all kind of irrelevant given what the OP has stated. Funny how he's able to put the ejected round back in the magazine, feed and shoot that one without issue, followed by the last. The only difference between the rounds is whether they're on the left or right side of the magazine.

I'm hoping that the OP can load five in the magazine to confirm whether the same thing happens on rounds two and four i.e. limit the problem to one side of the magazine.

 

[sage5907]

Unlike a push feed, a controlled feed rifle has to hit solid on the back of the stroke before it will fully eject. It doesn't have a plunger type ejector that ejects at the instant the front of the case clears the receiver. So if you pull the bolt back without hitting the back of the stroke and then push it forward it will push a new round from the magazine. Then if you pull the bolt to the back of the stroke and eject the fired round the other round will be laying loose on top of the magazine. It may not be his problem but it was worth discussing. He needed to understand this point before he started looking for a more serious problem.

 

[igotta40]

This is good information, guys, thanks. I’ll follow up at the range and report back.

 

[sage5907]

This is basic stuff for a controlled feed rifle, but someone who has not used one before may not realize that if you are loading 3 cartridges that you need to put all 3 in the magazine and cycle the bolt to put the first round in the chamber. If you put 2 in the magazine and drop the third round down the pipe and close the bolt the extractor has to jump over the cartridge rim which is hard on the extractor. Not only that, but in the process the shooter has to hold the back of the cartridge down on the one in the magazine in order to close the bolt. If the shooter was pushing the top round to the right with his thumb it would be possible during this process to dislodge the top round from the magazine so it would be laying on top of the follower when the bolt is closed.

 

[sage5907]

This is good information, guys, thanks. I’ll follow up at the range and report back.

If you are still having trouble after another try at the range I would suggest measuring the width of the opening in the bottom of the receiver where the cartridges come through. On a pre 64 Model 70 the width is .544 and your rifle may be the same. Maybe you could get jmr40 to measure the width on his rifle because it should be the same as yours. I remember reading somewhere in the archives that U.S Repeating Arms had cut some of their magazine rails incorrectly but I thought it was on rifles older than 2018. Magnum cartridges had a width of .565 so you could check to see if they used a receiver intended for magnum cartridges on your 243.

 

[murf]

the follower is probably cocked to one side and auto-ejects the cartridges from one side of the stagger.

luck,

murf

 

[jmr40]

If you put 2 in the magazine and drop the third round down the pipe and close the bolt the extractor has to jump over the cartridge rim which is hard on the extractor.

Not on modern Winchesters, nor most CRF rifle made in the last 50 years or so. At one time this was an issue. The front of the extractor on most newer rifles is beveled to make this possible.

 

[sage5907]

Not on modern Winchesters, nor most CRF rifle made in the last 50 years or so. At one time this was an issue. The front of the extractor on most newer rifles is beveled to make this possible.

I think too much of my rifles to force the extractor over the cartridge rim. Besides, if you get in a hurry while loading and don't get the round in the magazine pushed down and ram a sharp pointed bullet into the primer of the round in the chamber you may get a surprise.