Witnesses say police not justified in shooting naked man

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ID_shooting

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"Witnesses say police not justified in shooting naked man

10:55 PM MDT on Tuesday, October 18, 2005

By ANTONIA GIEDWOYN / KGW.com

SANDY -- Two witnesses testified Tuesday before a Clackamas County grand jury deliberating whether police were justified in fatally shooting a naked, unarmed Gresham man last month.

Both witnesses indicated they agree with the man’s family that Fouad Kaady should not have been shot.

“I have no idea why they shot him. I honestly don’t. I thought they were there to help him," said witness Elaine Thornlimb.

Fouad Kaady in a photo from his family.
She said she called 9-1-1 when she saw him bleeding, burned and naked, walking alongside the road north of Sandy. She said at first he smiled and waved, but as she followed him, he grew agitated.

“At one point he did turn around, yell something and jump on my car and jumped up and down on my sun roof and left blood on my car,” she said. Kaady wasn't armed, according to Thornlimb.

On the day of last month's shooting, the officers received a report of a hit-and-run car accident and arrived to find Kaady naked. As police tried to get him under control, he became combative, they said. The officers tried to taser him but were not able to get Kaady to calm down.

At one point Kaady got on top of the patrol vehicle, which is when at least one of the officers shot him.

Kaady died at the scene.

The second witness testified that Kaady had been behaving strangely, but when officers arrived, he calmed down until they used a taser on him.

“He was on the roof of the cop car and it wasn’t more than maybe about less than a minute…and they unloaded and fired off the shots on him," said witness Paul White.

White and Thornlimb said that while Kaady may have acted irrationally, he didn't deserve to be killed.

More witnesses were expected to testify on Wednesday and the grand jury could reach a decision by Thursday.

Officers shot and killed Kaady when he was wandering on SE 362nd Ave. in Sandy in early September.

“There must be an accountability of some sort to those that misused their position of authority to use it to take life when life should not have been taken,” Zania Kaady, Fouad Kaady's sister said Monday as protesters gathered outside the courthouse.

The sheriff's office identified the two officers who fired at Kaady as as 24-year-old William Bergin, a Sandy Police officer, and 44-year-old deputy David Willard of the Clackamas County Sheriffs Office."


Really difficult to claim public safety when the perp is naked.
 
It does seem strange that they would shoot him, but then again, I'd be extremely loathe to go hand to hand with a naked man.
Biker
 
"He pointed his gun at me."

SIR YES SIR Gunnery Sergeant Hartman!

“This is my rifle this is my gun, this is for fighting this is for fun”
 
Unjustified?

Let's hear both sides of the story. Meanwhile, do a search for Deputy Richard Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office. Read how he died.
 
With no more information than is presented in the article, I can make one absolute determination. I am staying out of Oregon. There must be something in the water up there.
 
Crap happens!
Deputy Richard Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office.

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1892

Liberals Mugged by Racial Reality
By Timothy Egan
nytimes.com | July 16, 2002

After the fatal shooting of a black man by a white police officer last spring, community leaders here planned a chain of demonstrations to follow a rush-hour shutdown of the freeway through downtown.

The aim of these "surprise strategic strikes," the organizers said, was to change the way the police treated African-Americans in Seattle. At the same time, city leaders were preparing new regulations for police officers, intended to determine whether race was a factor in whom they stopped and arrested.

But the protests and the regulations were abruptly put on hold by the killing three weeks ago of a white King County sheriff's deputy by a black man who had a history of run-ins with law enforcement. The deputy, Richard Herzog, was shot after he tried to restrain the man, who had been running naked in traffic. Deputy Herzog used pepper spray, but he was knocked to the ground, lost his weapon to the man and was repeatedly shot in front of nearly 50 people.

The killing has generated a backlash against efforts to make officers more sensitive to race, with officers saying they feel inhibited from fully protecting themselves because of fears of racial recriminations.

"We are sick and tired of being nitpicked about decisions we make every day," Sheriff Dave Reichert said at an emotional news conference shortly after his deputy's death. "We are sick and tired of being looked at as racists."

A question that Sheriff Reichert and other law enforcement agents raised is whether Deputy Herzog had feared using his gun out of concern that he might be criticized later.
 
What's the problem? Officer safety is the number one priority, right? When in doubt, kill the citizens -- as many as needed. It's the only really safe way. That makes sure that the officer goes home at night. :rolleyes:
 
There are always bad decisions made by good people. There are also bad people in decision making positions.

I am always wryly amused at how some folks paint some things with a wide brush; especially if they have never been in the position that police officers find themselves from time to time.

LE is a highly scrutinized occupation, as well it should be. They are authorized to separate one from one's liberty and freedom. But to sneer at what they do in general, causes one to wonder about the sneeror's thought processes. :rolleyes:
 
But to sneer at what they do in general, causes one to wonder about the sneeror's thought processes.

I am not sneering at what police do in general at all, Grampster. I am sneering in my own way at an excuse that is OFTEN offered when something like this happens, the 'as long as all the officer's got to go home that night, it is all good' mind set of SOME in LE.
 
I've been watching this case from the start on local news, and I can say this - let the grand jury decide. Not saying that in todays society, especially in the Portland area that the officers will get objective consideration, but the system should be allowed to follow it's course.

That said, I am glad as heck that someone posted the Herzog story already - all the old-school horror stories about people on PCP on a rampage hold true even if the person isn't wearing clothes. The posted news article from King county should clarify that Naked is not the same as Harmless.

Very few people in this world are faced with an out of control, naked, painted Red (as initially reported), non-comminicative, bizarre unknown male subject on a dark and rainy night. Very few people have followed the use of force protocol (attempted to taze), and had it not work, and have the subject continue to act bizarre and not comply with lawful orders.

I know that this forum has a group of contributors who have very different philosophies on the roles and purposes of LEOs, and that there is a very good case for their uselessness in some situations (the acute commission of a crime vs. follow-up).

There are very good cops, and very bad cops, as in any job. These men/women were hired, sworn, and assigned to run this call by the elected representatives of that area, and they were given the lattitude to manage it to the best of their abillities. I do not know if they acted appropriately - that is for the GJ to determine. Until then, please do not describe their actions as unlawful or incompetent, or innapropriate.

I guess for my first post here, I will probably draw some heavy flames, but I had to put it our there.

Rest in Peace Dep. Herzog
 
I do not know if they acted appropriately - that is for the GJ to determine. Until then, please do not describe their actions as unlawful or incompetent, or innapropriate.


Oh please. This is a discussion board. Are you honestly proposing that we should under no circumstances dare to have an opinion on the behaviour of police officers? That we should shut up until the Grand Jury decides? That ...

oh never mind. I give up.:banghead:
 
First of all, this was not the Portland Police. This was a Sandy Police officer and a Clackamas County Sheriff. This is outside of Portland, basically the outer, outer suburbs.

The victim was obviously having a bad day and reportedly was carrying a full gas can around in his vehicle. It ignited and the kid caught fire. At some time, I'm thinking while on fire, he hit parked cars, and the cops were called. He stripped off his clothes and starting acting crazy - most likely as a result of excruciating pain. He was definitely out of it.

The cops did NOT have to shoot the kid, as it should have been glaringly apparent that he did didn't have any weapons. Backup could have been called and they could have taken him alive.

I heard a cop say he was in fear for his life. Sound like a broken record?

This killing didn't need to happen. They could have waited a bit for the kid to calm down, get him some medical care for severe burns all over his body, including his head, which has open burn sores.

The Grand Jury appears to be taking extreme care in this.
 
The officers tried to taser him but were not able to get Kaady to calm down.
'bout the only thing I gathered from this one sided session of finger pointing was that the taser just may not be the magical solves all that so many are making it out to be.
 
They probably didn't even hit him with the Tasers.

Again, they could have called lots of backup, contained the guy and let the situation calm down.

Instead, they had to kill him.
 
Where was Spiderman? If all police officers were equipped with those neat-o wrist-mounted web shooters, they could avoid all kinds of problems subduing recalcitrant suspects.
 
Yup. Spiderman was on a call in Portland at the time.

This incident occured out on country roads, far from the City. Lots of the land around there is fenced to keep livestock in. The kid couldn't have got too far if they contained him on the road. One more unit on other side would have done the trick.
 
yorec said;
'bout the only thing I gathered from this one sided session of finger pointing was that the taser just may not be the magical solves all that so many are making it out to be.

Just like there are no magic bullets, there are no magic intermediate force options either. Nothing guarantees a perfect result with everyone it's used on.

For the rest of the comments; Everyone in this thread who was there and witnessed this event, raise your hand!

Why don't we wait until the investigation is done and the facts are in before we rush to judgement? Every person, employed by the governemnt or private citizen deserves a fair hearing. We don't seem to give them that here.

Jeff
 
I'm in the police academy now, and here is something I learned a while back: A bleeding, unarmed suspect rushes an officer. The officer has knowledge that the suspect has an incurable, deadly disease (such as HIV). The officer is justified in shooting the suspect to avoid the risk of spreading the disease through the suspects blood/wounds.

Anyway, we'll see what happens in the end. Leave the cop-hating, liberal media to their dreamworld, as this article clearly portrays.
 
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