Would like clarification on shortening a shotgun according to ATF

[mattd987]

A sawed off shotgun is very appealing to most of us, but I would not want to get caught with something that does not have a tax stamp, if it is not legal. I am just trying to make sure that I understand the law.... "a barrel length less than 18 in. or 46 cm and an overall length less than 26 inches." Just so that I can make sure that I understand this, let me pose some questions for you.

1. Can a barrel be less than 18 inches if the overall length is not less than 26 inches? Or does the barrel in fact need to be at least 18 inches no matter what?

2. What if the stock is an adjustable stock with a pistol grip like that found on an AR-15? How does the overall length factor play into that? How would the ATF measure the rifle with that kind of stock?

I saw a movie with the wife the other night... It was Twilight and the father in the movie is cleaning a nice side by side shotgun. It looked like a very nice and short shotgun. I have to admit that after seeing that shotgun, I got to thinking about a short shotgun again.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks.

 

[RyanM]

Barrel length has to be greater than 18" no matter what, and the overall length has to be greater than 26" no matter what.

I forget how they measure with collapsible stocks. I know with folding ones, they measure in the unfolded position. However, any shotgun that takes a collapsible stock will also be more than 26" even with a pistol grip only and 18.5" barrel, so that shouldn't be an issue. Unless there are ones for double barrels that I'm aware of. Even then, 26" is actually pretty short when the barrel is at least 18". IIRC, you only end up with about 2" of stock left, if you trim a double barrel to the minimum non-NFA length.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Leave the hacksaws to plumbers.

If you want a short side by side, buy a coach gun. If you want a short repeater, buy a riot gun. There are untold thousands of both available. No sense in worrying about all the legalities when you can easily buy something legal off the rack to begin with.

lpl

 

[X-Rap]

If its used bring a tape and a dowel!

 

[Dragk913]

I sawed my barrel down (was a 28") using a vice and a hacksaw. Not hard, just clean up the end nicely and reblue/paint it.

The barrel has to be atleast 18" (measured from the bolt face down the barrel). Most people recommend adding a 1/4"+ so there is absolutely no way anyone can say the length is shorter than 18".

Not sure about measuring the collapsible stock, however, most pistol grip shotguns measure the legal 26"

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I can only imagine the man would measure the overall length of a shotgun with an adjustable stock with the stock in the fully collapsed position.

I can't honestly see a reason to have a shotgun barrel less than 18". It would probably pattern horribly. I'm not saying it shouldn't be legal, just make sure you want it to be that short before you hack it off. The 18" coach guns are really tight, almost too tight for me (I'm 6'-1").

 

[highorder]

I can't honestly see a reason to have a shotgun barrel less than 18". It would probably pattern horribly.

Why? A cylinder bore should pattern just fine from an 18" gun, or a 14" NFA gun.

Not to mention, short shotguns are designed to use at short range, where patterns dont get bigger than a paper plate anyhow.

Leave the hacksaws to plumbers.

They're already have their hands full with the pipe cutters.

 

[travistheone]

register a serbu shorty as an AOW with a five dollar tax stamp. doesnt get any shorter.http://www.serbu.com/

 

[stiletto raggio]

If you've really got a hankering for a short-barrel, I agree with Travistheone. Personally, I can see a use for an 8-10" Saiga since you don't lose capacity and it is one of (if not the only) autos that takes a true folding stock. But until my home state allows SBSes, I will take my 18" and be happy with it.

I found a used Brazilian o/u at Gander Mountain for $160. We bought it, took it home, measured twice, cut the barrels to 18.25 and then cut the stock off at 26.5" OAL. It is incredibly handy and, with birdshot or Aguila mini-slugs, very easy to control. It looks pretty sweet, too.

 

[wcwhitey]

Quick refresher. How is the barrel measured. If I recall you insert the dowel to where it contacts to bolt or breech face, mark off and then measure. Am I correct? Thanks Bill

 

[RyanM]

Quick refresher. How is the barrel measured. If I recall you insert the dowel to where it contacts to bolt or breech face, mark off and then measure. Am I correct? Thanks Bill

You got it.

My Serbu's actually got a 7-1/8" barrel by that measurement, not 6.5".

 

[PT1911]

Potentially stupid question alert!!!!

potentially stupid question alert...

hmmmm... what about a pistol grip and a rifled slug barrel... what sort of regulation would be on the necessary length of that...

once a shotgun always a shotgun or would that become a pistol?

 

[nalioth]

A shotgun can never 'legally' be a pistol. Nor can a rifle.

They'll be 'short barreled shotguns' or 'short barreled rifles', in which case, once you have your tax stamp, you can make them look like a pistol if you want to.

 

[BhmBill]

Folders are measured in the folded position, so it'd have to be 26" minimum while folded, measured from the farthest points (such as tip of barrel to farthest point on buttstock).

Like others said, use a dowel down the barrel, mark it, and measure.

A shotgun can't be a pistol.

Non-title II shotguns MUST be a minimum of 26" overall and 18" barrel. 26.01" long and 18.01" barrel would be legal. My coachgun has a 18.125" barrel (18 1/8).

Technically, the removable barrel could be 30" long, but if your breech loads the shell 13" into the removable barrel, by law, that's a 17" barrel and would be either a felony or require all the bureaucratic ATF crap and get it registered as a AOW.

 

[RyanM]

potentially stupid question alert...

hmmmm... what about a pistol grip and a rifled slug barrel... what sort of regulation would be on the necessary length of that...

once a shotgun always a shotgun or would that become a pistol?

I actually asked Mark Serbu that question, once! His opinion was that a "shotgun" which met the criteria to be registered as an AOW (smoothbore pistol), fitted with a shortened rifled barrel, would indeed be a standard Title I "pistol," requiring no taxes or anything. However, he had no interest in making them because the Super-Shorty has a folding VFG (which requires AOW classification), and they have no interest in tooling up to make a horizontal forend since the shooter's hand could slip off and end up in front of the muzzle.

That's only one Class II manufacturer's opinion, but there you go. If you get a shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip only and was declared as a "pistol" on the first 4473 (or whatever number), you may be able to install a rifled barrel and trim it down to whatever you like, as long as a shoulder stock is never attached in conjuction with a short barrel (per USA v. T-C Arms Corp.).

But I'd write to the ATF to make sure before trying it. And like I said above "always a shotgun" does apply. You'd need to start with a receiver which did not ship from the factory with a shoulder stock, and which was declared as a pistol on the first 4473 and all subsequent ones, the same as if you were trying to make an AOW.

Hm. It may also be possible to buy a slug gun with a rifled barrel already attached, and declare it as a rifle on the 4473, then chop it down to a 16" barrel. But once again, write to the ATF first. They may decide to make that a destructive device, or maybe not. Some thing with the pistol too, really. Maybe a destructive device, maybe not.

 

[CleverNickname]

You guys are incorrect, the ATF measures folding or collapsible stocked firearms with the stocks opened up to their maximum length, as described in 27 CFR 479.11.

Certain states (Michigan and California, and probably some others) measure with stocks closed for testing compliance with their state laws.

 

[BhmBill]

Hm. It may also be possible to buy a slug gun with a rifled barrel already attached, and declare it as a rifle on the 4473, then chop it down to a 16" barrel. But once again, write to the ATF first. They may decide to make that a destructive device, or maybe not. Some thing with the pistol too, really. Maybe a destructive device, maybe not.

It's still a shotgun. They consider anything that fire's "fixed shotgun shell ammunition" that contains either several projectiles or a single projectile to be a shotgun. It was designed to fire shotgun shells.

 

[Jim Watson]

Bear in mind that if you crowd the line too closely, you will get to pay the lawyer to explain in court why your interpretations of the laws and regulations are better than the government's.

 

[CleverNickname]

BhmBill, the definition of a shotgun in 18 USC 921(a)(5) says that a shotgun has to have a smooth bore. It does include verbage about firing shot or a single projectile, but both parts of the definition must be met to have the firearm be considered a shotgun. So a "shotgun" with a rifled bore is not a shotgun according to federal law, even though that's what most people would call it.

 

[RyanM]

The laws are really ridiculous and gray when you start getting into this stuff.

Rifled slug guns are considered shotguns because they're built on the same receivers as shotguns and they share ammo, but they don't otherwise meet the definition.

PGO shotguns (delivered in that configuration from the factory) can be registered as a pistol, but are still considered a "shotgun" as long as the barrel is longer than 18" and the OAL is over 26", so you can have a VFG and/or stock if you want, as long as the barrel is long.

Crazy, horrible, byzantine laws. Just the way the ATF likes them.

 

[rcmodel]

The way I understand it:
Once a machinegun, always a machinegun.
Once a pistol, always a pistol.
Once a shotgun, always a shotgun.

If the manufacture used the block of serial numbers reported to the BATF to be shotgun serial numbers, and put one on a shotgun receiver, it is a shotgun from then on. Regardless of what barrel it has on it.

Putting a rifled deer barrel on a receiver reported to the BATF to have a shotgun serial number does not make it a rifle serial number.

rc

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Clevernickname, all...




Yes...that is my acceptance also.


A erstwhile Shotgun, shortened to have a Pistol Grip in lieu of a Stock, and a Barrel less than eighteen inches, which has had it's Barrel(s) "Rifled", would 'legally' then be...a Pistol capable of firing whatever shells it can chamber.


And...having a Lawyer on hand to argue this in Court, would be prudent.


'Microgroove Rifling' I believe qualifies AS "Rifling" and has for a long long time...and, would not be difficult to provide for any had-been 'Shotgun' for converting it into a 'Rifle' or 'Pistol', depending on length.


Law...is all about definition, ambiguity, interpretion, and ( force of ) arguement.


Any definition invites assay...analysis...


How is one to say that a Single Shot, Bolt Action .22 Target Pistol is not an illegally 'short' Rifle?


On and on...interesting things to think about...


I'd LOVE to have an old Outside-Hammer, 12 Ga., 'short' Shotgun. ( like the 'Unouchables' one say...)


Do you or others know roughly what one normally needs to do to make and own one Legally?

One applies for permission, and, and if granted, pays a small yearly 'Tax'?

 

[BhmBill]

BhmBill, the definition of a shotgun in 18 USC 921(a)(5) says that a shotgun has to have a smooth bore. It does include verbage about firing shot or a single projectile, but both parts of the definition must be met to have the firearm be considered a shotgun. So a "shotgun" with a rifled bore is not a shotgun according to federal law, even though that's what most people would call it.

Like rcmodel said, if its serialized as a shotgun, its a shotgun. A rifled bore on a shotgun receiver, is a shotgun. If it's designed to fire shotgun shells, the atf will call it a shotgun.

A pistol can become a rifle, but a rifle cannot become a pistol.

 

[RyanM]

A pistol can also become a shotgun, it's just that "smoothbore pistol" is already an NFA classification.

A "smoothbore pistol" is considered a wholly distinct type of firearm from a shotgun, however.

There really are no easy black-and-white calls when the NFA and ATF are involved. One agent says this, another says that.

It is an interesting legal question, though. There are smoothbore shotgun >18" barrels available for the T/C Contender and Encore. What's the legality on those, and receiver designation? T/C seems to like pushing at the stupid laws, a lot more than any other gun manufacturer I can think of. I should buy a Contender G2 some day.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreShotguns.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2ContenderShotguns.php

So, pistol can be made into a rifle, yes.

Rifle or shotgun into a pistol, no.

(normal) Pistol can be made into a shotgun, maybe?

Rifle can be made into a shotgun, maybe?

Shotgun can be made into a rifle, no clue?